5:2 Diet Thread! Going up to 11!

[GreenEggsAndNichts]

The continuing thread for those of us following either the 5:2 diet or the alternate-day fasting diet.

The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012, and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat what you like, or approximately your TDEE (see explanation below). Alternate-day fasting is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low, around 500 calories on average for a woman, 600 for a man, on those days.

You'll find on these threads we use a number of acronyms. If you're new to the threads, or Mumsnet in general, they might not make much sense.

WOE/WOL = Way Of Eating/Way Of Life. We use this term instead of "diet" as many of us see this as something to do in the long term.

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a website many use for keeping track of the number of calories they're eating.

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day.

ADF = Alternate-day Fasting, as it says on the tin, fasting every other day rather than 5:2.

Michael Mosley has recently unveiled a new website to accompany his new book on the subject. Please go check them out, as he's the whole reason most of us are here!

I know a number of people lurk on this thread, as this is currently quite popular. Please just jump in and post if you're new- we won't bite. Well, maybe on a fast day. You'll find a lot of support here.

Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:

First things first, here are links to some of our previous threads: most recent one before that another one!

Another thread which breadandwine has started is a good resource for some of the links and tips that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules. This might be a good place to catch up with us if you're feeling a bit lost!

frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!

Here is the link to the BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon.

B&W has found a new link to the aforementioned Horizon programme here. If you're keen to see it, watch it soon, because BBC has been quick to find these copies and shut them down online. We're hoping they'll re-play it again soon. I know these threads are popular, maybe they'll read my request.

A blog post here gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.

A Telegraph article which comments on the diet and gives a brief overview.

A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4 cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant.) it also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")

Something to consider if you are currently your ideal BMI: this appears to suggest the benefits for women at a lower BMI might not be seeing the same health benefits that are found on men at their ideal BMI.

Another food link, here is a link to the BBC Good Food site, with a list of low-calorie soups.

A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing, btw. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful. Sorry if I haven't given credit where it's due, but it was just enough of a job getting all the links re-copied and back into one post.

Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this diet!

Morning!
It's been said before, I'll say it again... Wow! These threads move fast!

I'm on my 4th fast today and totally in 'the zone' haven't eaten yet and plan to break my fast around 2ish with a boiled egg. I've previously broken with natural yoghurt and fruit but decided to try egg today.

Reading through the other posts (some brilliant advice, thanks guys) I think I need some suggestions... I have fallen into a carb trap, my meals consist mainly of carbs on fast days and I've seen that most of you long time fasters bulk your fast meals right up with vegetables, but I don't like many vegetables I eat salad but am finding its not as filling and slightly higher in calories? I'm going to peruse the recipes threads again but would be grateful for any ideas or advice from anyone else who is not quite so veg tolerant.

Morning all! I'm really intrigued by the busting of the diet myths - when I have some spare pennies I'll read the John Briffa book, but it's good to be reading about it here too.

'Non' fast day for me today and feeling once again exceeding full after a normal breakfast, which is good - am hoping my mammoth appetite is shrinking.

I have to report that on fast days I feel good. Clear headed, sharp, cheerful. I tend to get waves of hunger after I've eaten my last meal, and dream wistfully of a nice supper of cheese and biscuits, but hey, by then it's not long until breakfast.

I also sleep very well on a fast day. I love 'em, to be honest - though having only done 3 it's a bit presumptious of me to make a judgment.

I'm doing ADF at the moment so tomorrow will be another fast - tbh looking forward to implementing everything I've learned so far. Happy eating everyone (or not!)

I?ve just done some internet research (I know?) about ?starvation mode? and myths. It seems that ?famine response? (aka starvation mode) is an acknowledged phenomena but that there are embellishments and myths surrounding it (such as that one day of fasting can start it off).
Famine response does indeed lower metabolism and lead to higher rates of muscle loss. It will lead to slower than expected weight loss. It also kicks in more quickly with women than men. All that seems to be agreed, even by those who are ?dispelling myths?. What doesn?t happen is that weight loss will stop, or be reversed, metabolism can?t be permanently damaged and it doesn?t happen overnight. It is also less prevalent in the very obese, who continue to lose weight more rapidly. So not quite a myth, but very misunderstood. I think it is important for people who are restricting calories for the purpose of weightloss to be aware of the physical and biological responses to calorie restriction. I?d be interested to know how ghanagal has got on this week, given that she seemed to be a prime example of famine response in action.

eric the last time I researched starvation mode I came to the conclusion that if it existed it set in at very low body fat percentages - less than 10% for woman - lower than that for men. That's an incredibly low body fat percentage for woman - and unless you are a professional athlete, it would be incredibly unhealthy.

So often we diagnose a plateau as starvation mode when in reality we don't know what has caused a plateau, we just assign our best guess and given that people misunderstand the concept of starvation mode they often assign that to be the cause.

When you reduce your caloriie intake, your metabolic rate will decrease because your body has less work to do - processing food is an energy intense process, that coupled with some people's response to lower calorie consumption is that they reduce activity due to the feeling of lack of energy, you have a double whammy and metabolic rate is reduced.

Eriknorsman....yikes, I was wasn't I? lololol. As I was reading your post I was thinking, "oh that sounds like what was happening to me" ...I nearly dropped off my chair when I saw my name!! Im trying exceptionally hard to keep to my tdee (last night went to 1560 -tdee 1700), so I will keep you posted Eriknorseman (and others). Dont know how to do the red faced/embarrassed smiley...but rest assured I am living it!! lol

Snowkey, that's not what I read, but I guess it's down to individual interpretation. I've spoken to many people who have found anecdotally that this has applied to them, and been fixed by increasing calories. A plateau must have a cause, because (IMO) calorie restriction is a fairly precise tool and if it isn't causing weightloss then there is a reason. If it is a common factor in 'plateaus' that the individual is restricting too much and over time, it makes sense that 'famine response' is the cause.
All opinion and interpretation however!

Ghanagal to do the embarrasses emoticon (see list below) first put a [ then type the word blush then put another ]

Ghanagal :) I hope it continues on a downward trajectory!

Snowkey, sorry don't quite understand. You're saying that reducing calorie intake decreases metabolic rate - but isn't that what we're doing? And isn't that bad news?

BTW I had my fast day yesterday, then woke up and exercised before breakfast - thought I'd try it out. To my surprise, I had way more energy than usual and didn't not faint/dizzy at all. Thing is, I didn't feel hungry at all afterwards and it's only now I'm making myself something to eat. I could have probably gone on for longer. There's no reason why we should eat sooner rather than later after a fast day is there?

not if you're doing intermittently whether. if over time you are not eating enough then of course your body will respond to that and change it's approach and survival plan. if it is just a fast now and then then it doesn't react iirc.

i guess the stuff i read on having 2 days between fasts was about keeping the body reassured that there was no shortage and keeping the fasts irregular 'surprises' or whatever so they seem like one offs to the body rather than a new pattern/environment to adjust to. however plenty says it's not a problem and you can do every other day if you want to. i'm erring on the side of caution and thinking i'll leave at least 2 day gaps.

Thanks for the clarification swallowed. I just can't actually believe this, it seems to easy. If I lose even a few llbs, I think I will cry. All those years of miserable dieting, then overcompensating by stuffing myself and the tedious counting calories for a piece of chewing gum FFS.

Whethergirl Metabolic rate is just the rate at which you burn calories - your body needs calories to digest food, keep warm, move, etc.. - less food consumed - less energy needed - this is not a bad thing....mostly your body uses less energy to process food than it gets from the food, except maybe for foods like celery that take more energy to digest than they deliver.

Eric there are very conflicting opinions on starvation mode and reasons for plateaus....the thing that I notice is that most of these opinions is just that - opinion often based on very little scientific evidence, even where evidence exists often studies are flawed. I was reading on the Livestrong website last night that is was a fact that exercising on an empty stomach used up more body fat and yet elsewhere on the same website it was a fact that exercising on an empty stomach to burn more fat was a myth. Too many facts seem to be just made up.....surely we should have some indisputable facts on this stuff but we don't.

Are the so called health professionals just making stuff up as the go along?

Considering the scientific progress we've made, generally, surely these myths/facts can't be that hard to prove?!

A quick drop in to say not to forget to recheck your tdee when you start losing weight. Mine was 1930 when I started this WOE & is now 1694.

true conflicting opinions on just about everything.

it does seem logical though given how clever our bodies and their systems are and how good at adapting that if you do something for a long time the same way the body will adapt to it.

so that if you are undereating consistently over a period of time the body will find ways to adapt and prevent too much weight loss.

to me it seems like that's a part of why intermittent fasting works so well - there's no adaptation reaction - it's just an anomaly that slips past the computer. but just my opinion obviously.

as to where, at what level, for who and what to call that adaptation (e.g. starvation mode) i have no idea.

Also a nice incentive is to occasionally check your BMI mine has gone from 36 to 28, ok still in overweight category but way better than where I started.

There was an experiment done on rats where they removed their ovaries - the rats were given an unrestricted diet and they got fat. So they gave the rats the quantity of food they consumed before their ovary op...the rats still got fat - their explanation, the rats stopped moving - body wanted to gain weight and unless they put the rats on starvation rations the rats gained.

oh yeah!! lolol....thanks vp i've been desperate to know how to do that!!

that's made me feel really optimistic about the blumming menopause snowkey! cheers for that

snowkey.....does that mean it is essential to exercise? I have to admit...i do zero, zilche, nada.....

Me too Thankyou!
How very clever

sorry, that was for Virginposter x

Ghanagirl I monitor my activity using a fitbit pedometer. On days where I have been quite sedentary I have burned 1659 kcals, on my very active days I burn 2600kcal, most days are around 2200kcal - from that you can see the difference exercise can make.
I'm not saying that you have to do formal exercise but you will find weight loss takes longer and you have to eat a lot less if you are not very active. Just keep on your feet as much as possible - it made a huge difference to Dr Mosley's calorie needs when he moved constantly through the day...small things like walking around while you are on the Phone - the chair is your enemy!

swallowed to expand a little bit on the starvation mode myth- it's based on a study which itself was based on participants in post-war Europe. These were people who had actually starved from lack of food. The study concluded that, towards the end of the starvation period, meaning, towards the end of their reserves of fat (so, about the 5% body fat mark), their bodies did desperately try to cling to that little bit of fat left. However, even that only meant a change of about 1/6th or so (if the person would have lost 3 lbs in a week, they ended up losing 2 1/2... this is my own example, my maths could be wrong but that is how I understood it) in fat loss. Fat loss still happens, even under those conditions, because of course the body is being given no fuel additional fuel.

Eating 500 calories twice a week and eating a full normal load of calories the other 5 days isn't even comparable to the conditions of that study. And, speaking for myself only, I'm nowhere near 5% body fat.