5:2 Diet Thread! 7 is our lucky number...

[GreenEggsAndNichts]

The continuing thread for those of us following either the 5:2 diet or the alternate-day fasting diet. Both are two versions of Intermittent Fasting, which you can read more about here.

The 5:2 diet was featured on Horizon in August 2012, and essentially requires you to fast for 2 non-consecutive days per week. The other 5 days, you can eat what you like. Alternate-day fasting is just how it sounds; you fast every other day. By "fasting", we mean that we keep our calorie consumption very low, around 500 calories on average, on those days.

I know a number of people lurk on this thread, as this is currently quite popular. Please just jump in and post if you're new- we won't bite. Well, maybe on a fast day.

Here is a list of links to get you started with this way of eating. Please let us know if you find a new article or some other information online:

First things first, here are links to some of our previous threads: most recent one before that another one etc!

Another thread which breadandwine has started is a good resource for some of the links and tips that get lost in these big threads. In addition to sharing links, we try to condense some of our top tips for fasting there. Keep in mind, we all do this differently, so these are just tips, not rules.

frenchfancy has a recipe thread over here, please post any low-calorie recipes there so they don't get lost in these bigger threads!

Here is the link to the BBC article regarding Michael Mosley's findings, which was featured on Horizon.

Here is where I would link to the aforementioned Horizon programme, but it appears as if the BBC have finally noticed it on YouTube and have taken it down. If you have another link for this episode, please PM me with it, or post it to the thread and we'll put it up for the next thread.

A blog post here gives some of the scientific explanation for why this way of eating helps you to not only lose weight, but improve your all-around health.

A Telegraph article which comments on the diet and gives a brief overview.

A study discussed here gives commentary specifically addressing the effect of this diet on obese people (both men and women), with regard to both health and weight loss. ("After 8 weeks of treatment, participants had an average 12.5 lbs reduction in body weight and a 4 cm decrease in waist circumference. Total fat mass declined by about 12 lbs while lean body mass remained relatively constant.) it also mentions "Plasma adiponectin, a protein hormone that is elevated in obesity and associated with heart disease, dropped by 30%. As did LDL cholesterol (25%) and triglycerides (32%).")

Important link if you are currently your ideal BMI: this appears to suggest the benefits for women at a lower BMI might not be seeing the same health benefits that are found on men at their ideal BMI.

And for those already fasting, here is a link to 100 snacks under 100 calories. We tend to favour lots of hot drinks during the day (count your milk if you use it!)

Another food link, here is a link to the BBC Good Food site, with a list of low-calorie soups.

We mentioned BMR and TDEE often. Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE) quantifies the number of calories you burn in a day. This measure is best estimated by scaling your Basal Metabolic Rate to your level of activity. TDEE is critical in tailoring your nutrition plan to desired fitness goals. Here is a link to a calculator to help you figure out how many calories you should be eating in a day.

A BIG THANK YOU to all who have been contributing, btw. Most of us are learning this way of eating as we go along. All of the links above have been posted by others in our previous threads, and they've been very helpful. Sorry if I haven't given credit where it's due, but it was just enough of a job getting all the links re-copied and back into one post.

Come join us, and tell us about your experiences with this diet!

Good to see Dr MM back on Twitter. His book 'The Fast Diet' is out in January so should make interesting reading...

Mornin bro ..Will you buy it do you think? (I might pay a visit to Waterstones and have a look one lunchtime or two .. though i reckon I do owe Dr M a few quid for him bringing this WOE to my attention ..

Its not a very exciting title .. Wonder how it will stand out though and do amongst the plethora of other new diet books and campaigns by the big diet players.. but I expect they will repeat the programme again .. hopefully with an update.

Everyone You know I was thinking this morning , that I?ve never been on a 'dieting' forum before ( and I?ve been on a few) where so many people are so happy with the regime.. I realise that a few haven?t had such luck , but even if we've all not lost the weight we wanted , at least we have the good health to look forward to if people like Cyclists and MOBs results are repeated in us.. (I?ve not had any tests done so don?t know.. but I do know that I?m a lot less of the frumpy almost 55 yr old that I was in danger of becoming . and definitely have my Mojo back!!
AND I can eat cheese!! (and )..

So yes I DEFINATLY owe DR M a few quid .. (Though id rather take him out to a good dinner with the rest of us!!) ,

You know (and I?m not usually so reckless and realise this is a slightly scary idea here for an internet forum but I?ve just thought.. we?ve all been so supportive of each other, and I reckon this WOE may hit the headlines and we'll be inundated after the new year, so Perhaps some of us 'oldies' could arrange a celebratory meet up/ dinner ... ? What do you think? Too scary??

....oh im so annoyed that even with the spell check I spelt 'Definitely' wrong..

I think the book looming on the horizon might explain why he hasn't been taking too many questions! However (oh I like a bit of bold) it does make me excited because a book means he'll be doing publicity tours etc, and surely doing a chat on MN can't be too far off. right?

I've put my own request in to MNHQ but if any of you feel so inclined to also give them a nudge, it might help show that there's interest in it. (I suspect they already know, given how popular these threads are, but it can't hurt!)

Fast day here, having a coffee and alternating between the PC and getting the house ready for Christmas decorations. We've a few more people coming to see the house tomorrow (landlady is selling it, we're buying another one, it's all very amicable but stressful, having to keep this one in show condition!)

Laska oh yes, I'll have a look at MM's book. I've already registered my feelings about diet books, and I've never purchased one, but I will definitely have a look to see if he has more explanations of the science behind it. I think we're also lacking in studies with just females, or more on the reaction of females to this woe. I realise he can't conjure up a study between now and then but it's on my list of things I'm curious about. I wonder if there are any studies planned, or already being done.

I actually wondered about organising a wee Secret Santa-type Christmas card exchange (so we'd all just be sending one card to one random person here) but thought that might be putting me over into the too perky category. I would be up for a dinner sometime, actually! Though I imagine we're all over the place and I'm not sure how easy that would be. (I'm also not exactly a walking advertisement for this WOE as I've still got quite a bit more weight to lose! Scary, indeed!)

GreenEggs, regarding studies on women specifically, when I was researching for my book, I did see that the people behind the Genesis Cancer Centre in Manchester are also releasing a diet book based on the specific studies they've done of the effect of ICR on women at a higher risk of breast cancer. You're probably already aware of it but the women were 35-44 so fertility must have been an issue there. Their work was also encouraging on insulin sensitivity in women than some of the other stuff on Paleo websites etc.

For speed, I've copied the summary I did of it below:

*
The Genesis Breast Cancer Prevention Centre (genesisuk.org) in Manchester has been measuring the effects of an intermittent calorie restriction diet, similar to the 5:2 diet, in women with a high risk of developing the disease.

Because excess weight is often associated with an increased risk of breast cancer, lowering weight can reduce the risk by up to 40%. Even more crucially, this form of dieting might offer extra benefits at genetic level. Their first study was encouraging and highlighted that the intermittent restriction appeared to be at least as effective as continuous (everyday) dieting in weight loss terms (1.usa.gov/113kSH6). Those on intermittent diets also showed greater ?insulin sensitivity? than the everyday dieters ? which is a good thing in terms of diabetes prevention.

The BRRIDE (Breast Risk Reduction Intermittent Diet Evaluation) study has been completed even more recently and has analysed breast and body tissues to see if the diet has made changes to how the genes are behaving. The hope is that that a diet of 1,800 calories five days a week, and 600 calories two days a week, may reduce the activity of the SCD gene which is thought to be a factor in the development of breast cancer.

As I said in my introduction, a very high percentage of the female relatives on my mother?s side of the family have had breast cancer diagnoses. Apart from my regular mammograms, I?ve felt powerless in the face of this history. Until now ? the evidence may not yet be there in black and white but I am doing this diet with an eye on future research and I await the outcome of this study with particularly keen interest. You can download a summary of this important work here (bit.ly/U4DbEH).

*

There's more about SCD here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stearoyl-CoA_desaturase-1 which has a breast cancer connection. It's related to fatty acids.

The Genesis book is called The Two Day Diet and I must admit I am tempted to buy that one for the science especially as the strong family history of breast cancer is one of the reasons I'm so committed to this WOE.

Yes, TGIB, I was initial following the Genesis diet when I switched to this version (I simply can't keep up with the amount of milk they want you to consume!) Their diet is different in that it requires consumption of... 650 calories or so of dairy products and veg, maybe more. I forget what the total calorie count is on a fast day on Genesis, but it's higher than with this WOE. And that's what makes me wonder about this. Is this 500 calorie fast a good thing for those of us of childbearing age, because it sure has played havoc with my cycle, something I've never had a problem with before in my life. There are also those who are reporting no losses, despite following the routine, whereas men seem to lose across the board with no finagling of what they eat on eating days, etc. I've stayed the same for a couple of weeks (not complaining- I've had Thanksgiving and all sorts in that time so I'm happy I've not gained!) whilst my DH is struggling to find clothes to fit him!

Thank you for the response :) It's all very interesting, especially the bit about insulin sensitivity, which hadn't been on my radar before.

The milk thing with Genesis is odd, isn't it? I wonder what the science is behind that - because I do have friends in remission from breast cancer who are incredibly anti all dairy products. I tend to think life is not worth living without cheese, but when I did a veggie low-carb diet (which I gave up despite amazing weight loss because I love baking), it worried me how much dairy protein I ended up eating.

I am right at the top of the Genesis age group but must say, it I was TTC, I wouldn't do this diet. Too few certainties.

May need to wait until Dr M's book is out but was wondering....I am doing 5:2 and trying to fast 16 hours overnight. However, I am drinking tea with milk in the morning (at around 12 hours). Will that be negating the good effects of the fast? Any thoughts?

LG Yes, perhaps it was just a step too far.

TGIB Yes, and that's where I'll run into a wall, I think. We'll be TTC, probably in the new year, so I'll have to take a break from this. (I'll still be around the thread, of course, you can't get rid of me that easily ) It is good to know there's a WOE waiting for me after any potential pregnancy, though. I'm very happy and comfortable with this WOE.

I started on the genesis diet before doing this. I found it really hard & the consumption of all that diary meant my cholesterol went up to 7.2, whereas on this WOE my cholesterol is back down to 5.2.

Hi Laska yeah I'll definiately be getting his book, I too feel I owe him a lot for opening my eyes to this way of living/eating and everything I have learned from this and the book is a small cost to pay.

Do any of you remember when you were a kid and you liked a band that no-one had really heard of. You spent all your time trying to convince people that this Band was brilliant and to buy their records (for those of you under a certain age a record is usually black, round and bigger than a CD and used to be sold in seedy places called Record shops). Then when the band actually made it and everyone knew their name and bought their records you felt (or I did anyway) that something of yours had been taken away from you...No...just me then? Oh well, but I feel that I'm going to be feeling the same come the early part of next year. This WOL is really going to take off soon and I reckon Dr MMs book will be the catalyst for some huge changes in the nations health. But remember guys we were here nearly first.

I'm up for Secret Santa cards, it'll be difficult to organise as prior experience of trying to get groups to do things like this makes me sceptical as inertia can be a mighty strong force. Not so sure about the 5:2ers Reunited dinner yet, as not sure how far I can cycle in this weather and we come from all over the planet (The States, Dubai, West Midlands etc ) so think that would be a huge thing to organise for now...but who knows??? The only forums I've been on before this were football or betting sites and I don't know what other diet forums are like but this one has been amazingly positive and supportive

And I totally agree on more studies needed for the 'smarter sex'. Us blokes seem to be benefiting from this very quickly but the evidence for women although any many cases is great, in some it's less consistant....God really must have been a bloke!

Have a great day all!!!!

For any of you under a certain age a CD was something that was round and too big to fit into an Ipod.

LP's were fun too!

Is it me or is the fasting harder on cold days .....

Ah the LP [stares off wistfully into the distance icon]

Hi TiP2 Yeah I found that when the weather changed, and like many have said on here I get cold, very cold very quickly on this.

You're right LG, I think it's just that the fasting changes your cycle so it's not as predictable when you might become pregnant. Of course women can become pregnant when getting very few calories, otherwise areas in famine would have no babies.

I think after the holiday season has passed I will make some changes and see what happens with my cycle. /tmi

Re genesis diet I emailed a couple of weeks ago to ask about the amount of milk in the diet. See posts below with my replies. Didn't really answer what I was asking! ........

Dear Louise

Its a cheap and easy way to get protein & nutrients in with the low calorie diet

HI Louise.

I then asked could you substitute some of the milk with more veg etc and this was the reply

As a Substitute, you can use soya milk

Kind regards

Michelle
Kind Regards

Dr Michelle Harvie
Research Dietitian
Genesis Prevention Centre
University Hospital South Manchester
Wythenshawe
Manchester
M23 9LT

Hi All

Haven't posted for a while but been reading all the comments as it's great to know that others are having the same experiences/struggles and successes.

I came on just now as it's a fast day and really cold, so need lots of distractions, so Yes, TiP2, I agree fasting is harder on a cold day!

This is my 5th week of 5:2ing and I've found its easier for me to drink black coffee/water to fill up with a miso soup at lunchtime to stop my tummy rumbling, rather than eating small meals throughout the day. I'm then having a 450ish cal dinner. Over the last week I've then been 16hour fasting until lunch next day. I think I'll probably buy MM's book as the 16hours is doable, but I can't remember why it is recommended!?!

Good luck everyone and thanks for posting your experiences. Off to shovel the snow off the drive!

Just signing in and saying hello with my shiny new winter name - I'm a serial name changer - have been here doing this diet and chatting on this topic for a while now.

Laska we could definitely do with an edit feature on this forum!

"I think the book looming on the horizon might explain why he hasn't been taking too many questions! "
GreenEggs I do hope that pun was deliberate!

I'm 19 hours into a 24 hour water-only fast, ATM. I don't feel any hunger, and I'm not always thinking about food...

But I find myself constantly clock-watching and counting off the hours until I can eat. I start off thinking, "24 to go", then I think, a couple of hours later, "2 gone, 22 to go". By the time I retired for the night it was, "7 gone, 17 to go".

By 10 this morning it was, "15 gone, only 9 to go!" And now I'm thinking "20 gone and only 4 to go."

When I'm doing my exercises I convert these figures to percentages. So at one stage whilst exercising I'd done 66% (or 2/3rds) and I only had 33% to go. So I'd done twice as much as I had to do. And I can do this for every figure between 24:0 and 1:23. I might even, at 6.30 tonight, tell myself I've completed 47 48ths of my self-imposed task!

Sad, or what!

hi all

GreenEggs good luck with ttc in the New Year...to be honest my cycles have always been all over the place, had first TOTM about 5weeks ago since having DD (and stopping bf 3months ago), but it took a year before my first after I stopped bf DS...will keep track though because it's another interesting affect on our overall bodies - especially then thinking ahead to maybe 20 or so years when I'll be pre-menopausal, what effect would 20years of 5:2 have had? Will it make the transition to menopause easier?! God I hate being a woman sometimes....

So managed my first ever two back to back fast days - ended up going to the cinema last night so missed dinner entirely and replaced it with a glass of wine, def still did up to 500kcals but will power was generally better than it has been in a while, so planning tightly made a lot of difference.

Was starving when I woke up and wolfed two crumpets with butter and jam which are now lying like a rock in my tummy

I'd be up for a dinner! I happen to be back in the UK for Christmas and throughout January so if it were in London or West Sussex I could probably make it...