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Insomnia, Progesterone Intolerance, Contraception and HRT

9 replies

TheQuestionSpottingMedic · 12/06/2020 11:49

I have already posted a couple of times about my ongoing insomnia on a historic thread - see

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3800201-AIBU-to-be-really-fucked-with-inability-to-sleep-at-night?watched=1&msgid=97385108#97385108 but I am now being prompted to start a new thread. I am not a medic - the name is a dig to flag that medics, as everyone else, will try to question spot for their exams and that they don't know everything (even though some think that they do!).

I have experienced 7 years of intermittent, what I thought was unexplained, insomnia (I asked my GP to check back in my notes to see how long it had been going on). Last week, a new friend used the term “progesterone intolerance” when I was complaining to her about my insomnia. This always returns with a vengeance when I am taking the progesterone element of my HRT (which I started in Jan 2020) but never during the estrogel-only phase of my monthly medication. I had never heard the term before and apologies if you already have - the rest of this post will of limited interest to you!

In an effort to try to sleep as well during the progesterone-only phase of my HRT as the Estrogel phase, my GP suggested that I try a Mirena coil as this would not only deliver the progesterone element I needed locally (and therefore supposedly should be less prone to side effects than progesterone taken orally) but also provide me with a treatment for my heavy periods and some (most likely redundant!) contraceptive protection at my age. Win-win I thought.

Since having the coil inserted last week I have experienced the worst insomnia I have ever had - broken sleep with 2/3 night wakings limiting sleep to less than 4/5 hours every night. It started the very evening that the coil was put in. Over the counter sleeping pills do not touch it and my GP prescribed sleeping pills (in case this was a teething period as my body adjusted to the coil) now provide me with only 2 hours sleep before I re-awaken. I think the insomnia is getting worse the longer the coil is in.

If I had to describe the feeling in my head, I would say that I cannot sleep at night as my mind is racing - butterflying if you will, across a variety of different subjects - all of them popping into my mind fleetingly even though my head is heavy (itchy even!) with sleep in the front part of my brain (behind my forehead). It feels as though something is overriding my sleep function no matter how tired I am. Meantime, during the day, I cannot hold any information in my brain for longer than seconds - human goldfish! Even reading a newspaper article is beyond me, never mind a whole book - Full Stepford-Wife (only without the grooming!).

I suspect that I am progesterone intolerant (as my friend is) and have been doing some research. It is believed that about 20% of women are progesterone intolerant to some degree. Some women are intolerant of their own progesterone. They can experience serious PMS symptoms and possibly are at a greater risk of post-natal depression. Others are intolerant of progesterone dosages in hormonal contraception and HRT, whether administered orally or by implant, irrespective of whether they have had PMS or PND before. This brings me back to my medical notes. I have just discovered that about 6 months after I was moved onto the progesterone-only contraceptive pill (Cezarette and later Cerelle, as I was experiencing heavy periods and had been taking the combined contraceptive pill since my late teens), I first complained of insomnia. However, this was an insidious, creeping up of insomnia so I did not immediately associate its onset with the progesterone pill and, more importantly, neither did my GP. Cue 7 years of "unexplained" insomnia.

My coil is being taken out this afternoon and I hope that I will regain my ability to sleep during my estrogel-only phases of my cycle. I will cross the bridge of whether I can solve my insomnia during the progesterone phase once I’ve caught up on some sleep!

I am not suggesting that your contraceptives or HRT will cause insomnia due to progesterone intolerance, merely that they might and to be aware of it so that you can take action rather than be fobbed off repeatedly by your GP as a neurotic woman!. I am also certainly not suggesting that you immediately stop taking any progesterone-based contraception or HRT - you need to speak to your doctor first.

I am also wondering if not everyone has so immediate a reaction to the progesterone in the coil as I have experienced and that its effects may be more insidious and take time to surface. I have double-checked the leaflet given to me when the Mirena was inserted and absolutely no mention of insomnia is made as a potential side effect - brilliant.

You may want to take a look at:

www.researchgate.net/publication/13933740_Progestogen_intolerance_and_compliance_with_HRT_in_menopausal_women

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/family_planning/2758092-Mirena-Depression-Five-Fucking-years-of-my-life-AIBU-to-have-the-rage?pg=10

www.chelwest.nhs.uk/services/womens-health-services/gynaecology-services/menopause-and-pms-clinics/links/ProgestogenandProgesteroneRegimensinHRT130518AGREED.pdf

www.studd.co.uk/dep_women.php (I have never spoken to anyone at this clinic but my friend used it). Tab down to the very bottom of the page for the section on progesterone intolerance

OP posts:
JinglingHellsBells · 12/06/2020 20:20

@TheQuestionSpottingMedic Someone flagged this up on another part of MN- the menopause forum.
I think- as a long term user of HRT (12 years) I'd be asking which progesterone you used prior to the Mirena- was it Utrogestan? If so, I do feel very hot and restless on it (used it for 7 years) but I get round that by using it vaginally. This is an accepted method in Europe.

The other thing to bear in mind is that insomnia is a very well known symptom of peri menopause. It could be that you were waking for the last 7 years as you were in peri.

I have never slept through the night for years and years. I wake at least once or twice but do manage to go back to sleep.

All I'd say is consider that it could be the menopause and not progesterone that is the issue (and the type in the Mirena is totally different to Utrogestan anyway.)

There is also the reverse placebo effect- if you suspect insomnia with a drug or treatment, it's more likely to occur.

JinglingHellsBells · 13/06/2020 07:27

The other thing I forgot to mention @TheQuestionSpottingMedic is that many of us get round the side effects of progesterone by increasing the estrogen slightly during the progesterone phase. So, maybe go from 2 pumps to 3.

The other option which I use under medical supervision, is to have a longer estrogen-only phase - but this is with a private consultant who monitors and advises. Your GP is likely to not 'allow' it as it's off -label, but you could increase the number of estrogen-only days a little without much risk.

Insomnia is a huge symptom of meno- it's the reason I went onto HRT in the first place. Although some sorts of progesterone may make it slightly worse, there are ways round it to get the benefits of estrogen. Utrogestan by the way is sedative- that's why it is taken at night- but not all women react the same way.

TheQuestionSpottingMedic · 13/06/2020 15:21

Thanks for taking the time to reply - think I will definitely investigate Utrogestan vaginally. I did try doubling my estrogel dosage to 4 pumps after 5 days (on my NHS GP's say so) but this made no difference to my ability to sleep. My progesterone only pills were Cearette (inexplicably the "ed" as in "ebra" (!) button on my keyboard won't work) and Cerelle.

I hear what you are saying about the anxiety over not sleeping stopping me sleeping but I really don't think that this was it. The coil came out at 5pm, my headache behind my forehead lifted around 8pm and I slept like a baby last night until 7am this morning.

I really do think that HRT, hormonal contraception and medication for anxiety/ depression/ insomnia is a very inexact science at the moment. Medical understanding of these areas is a bit like the dark side of the moon - under-explored and mankind's understanding is in its infancy! I think that I am simply one of the acknowledged 20% of women who are progesterone intolerant for reasons that will become clear at some point in the future (when medical research catches up).

At the moment, the HRT offering is very limited (admittedly there is greater tailoring to individual prescriptions in the private sector). At the moment, the NHS offering of HRT is a bit like offering all women a choice of bras in a maximum of, say, 5 available sies (missing "ed" again!).

I am also incensed that HRT that is required by the genetic hand you are dealt is commonly excluded from private health insurance when knee (or similar) injuries triggered by, arguably, contributorily negligent over-exercising is frequently covered (but that's a feminist rant for another day!).

OP posts:
JinglingHellsBells · 14/06/2020 08:38

Hi there @TheQuestionSpottingMedic Just coming back to you on a few points.

I don't think the science behind HRT and other meds is an exact science, to be honest. There is a huge amount of research showing that the symptoms of meno are down to loss of estrogen. Every major organ in the body has estrogen receptors- brain, bone, skin, etc- and when they are deprived they don't work so well.

You can get all available HRT on the NHS BUT the difference is that most GPs lack the training to individualise it.

If you or anyone was progesterone intolerant, this would have been obvious from your first period. We all react differently to our own progesterone (PMS ) but the beauty of Utrogestan is it's the same as our own and tends to be better tolerated.

The Mirena has an artificial progesterone in it as does all other HRT. Femoston (pill form) which has dydrogesterone is considered the nearest to our own next to micronised progesterone (Utrogestan.)

Utrogestan is used in larger doses for fertility where there is a chance of miscarriage.

Medical insurance won't cover menopause as it's a) a long-term/ chronic state and b) it's seen as 'natural'.

You can use medical cover for an initial appt such as heavy periods or migraines or other symptoms that MAY be related to peri menopause but once you have a diagnosis of it being menopause related they won't cover further appts.

I pay for my own private appts and it's worth every penny, after having initial consultations covered by insurance. Most women need only one or two appts annually for a review so if you are struggling it's worth thinking about.

Hope you get some sleep!

JinglingHellsBells · 14/06/2020 08:38

exact science= inexact!

TheQuestionSpottingMedic · 14/06/2020 17:47

Thanks @JinglingHellsBells all incredibly helpful. Have NHS gynae consultant telephone appointment in a week or two. She specialises aX a range of "wimmins' troubles" including HRT and hysterectomies (the latter being a solution that my mother and grandmother took). Crossing everything (except my legs!) for a solution.

OP posts:
TheQuestionSpottingMedic · 02/07/2020 15:11

Sorry - this is long.

This is an update following my NHS consultation with a gynaecologist. My telephone appointment was turned into a face-to-face appointment (as Covid cases permitted) which led to me having a physical examination. The gynaecologist (now male) confirmed that only a hysterectomy would manage my heavy menstrual bleeding. In the allocated NHS appointment length, however, he did not have time to address my concerns about progesterone intolerance or managing my symptoms whilst I wait for the hysterectomy (a current wait time of at least 12 months on the NHS).

My GP was therefore forced to refer me a second time to the gynae department (this time to the HRT team) who advised that no, I could only be prescribed oral utrogestan as the progesterone element of my HRT - their interpretation of the NICE guidelines is that vaginal dosages are not available on the NHS for HRT. Neither was I permitted to take the route available to PCOS sufferers (who, I believe, do not have periods), which is to take progesterone that triggers bleeds on a three-monthly basis, rather than every month. This could have mitigated the side effects of the progesterone intolerance. On the NHS, I was therefore condemned to either insomnia 50% of the time or sleeping pills/ anti-depressants.

I am extremely fortunate in that I have access to private healthcare through DH’s work and, following a telephone consultation with the same gynaecologist, I have now secured not only a private prescription but also a date for a hysterectomy privately (this autumn). Ironically, I am fortunate that my menstrual bleeding is so bad (!) that I can be referred for a hysterectomy on the NHS. Many progesterone intolerant women are forced to find the money for this operation on a private basis or put up with the debilitating side effects until the menopause eventually comes around.

The NHS is fundamentally failing a significant proportion of women, 20% of women are estimated to be progesterone intolerant to some degree (although, having read Caroline Criado Perez’s excellent book “Invisible Women” (especially the chapter entitled “The Drugs don’t Work”), one wonders how accurate this estimate is). This is scandalous. The symptoms of progesterone intolerance can be crippling and can start in puberty with PMS. What’s more they can also creep up on you in an insidious way. I think that, in the very beginning, my body was able to tolerate the progesterone-only contraceptives but, as my oestrogen levels began dropping as I became peri-menopausal, the symptoms became steadily worse.

In the olden days, when my mother was of child-bearing age (!), the NHS used to whip out women’s wombs at the first sign of any trouble. My mother had a hysterectomy at 38, I am 49. In these cost-conscious times I suspect (but do not know) that the NHS is increasingly relying on the cheaper and less invasive route of prescribing mirena coils as a reliable form of contraception and to treat heavy menstrual bleeding. Whilst this is entirely understandable, it needs to be recognised that this approach does not suit a significant proportion of women. Yes, it solves the problem of unplanned pregnancies and heavy menstrual bleeding but, in some, I believe, it triggers a vast array of debilitating symptoms which have, hitherto, been roundly dismissed by many in the medical profession as “All in her Head”.

The brain fog had me questioning whether I was experiencing early onset dementia. I lost my ability to concentrate on anything for longer than a few seconds (I would lose my mental thread mid-sentence), I could not read for pleasure as I lacked the concentration span, my vocabulary shrank, Stepford Wife-like - I was there in body but not in mind. Not only could I not sleep between 3am and 5am, I also experienced low mood and hair loss - all of which I have now had confirmed by my consultant, were CAUSED by my prescribed progesterone-based contraception and the progesterone element of HRT. ie these symptoms were distinct from just (!) being peri-menopausal. In the meantime, over the course of many years, I had had repeated blood tests to check whether I was peri-menopausal (all came back “normal”), I repeatedly declined prescriptions for anti-depressants (as I just knew that that was not the cause of my problem), I was referred to a thyroid consultant (who suggested that I should see a psychiatrist (!)) and to a sleep clinic. In theory, I have been available to return to work since 2015 and yet I have not had the “head space” to do so until now. I have therefore lost out financially over those years and will now find it even harder to return to the workplace. This is scandalous.

Many middle-aged women are already juggling caring responsibilities for children and parents with careers. They can ill afford to be let down in this way. I have variously heard of marriages failing and high-flying careers being willingly surrendered as women buckle under the sheer weight of managing their progesterone intolerance symptoms with these competing demands.

The NHS urgently and radically needs to improve its handling of this by:
1.Teaching all trainee and existing GPs that progesterone intolerance exists and can become apparent in patients at puberty, post-natally and peri-menopausally. They are in the front line of managing women’s symptoms. It is not “All in Her Head”.
2.Recognising that a patient’s progesterone intolerance may require a more nuanced approach to prescribed contraception and HRT. The current approach is the equivalent of offering NHS bras in only, say, 5 sizes. Quite clearly, that would be ridiculous.
3.Recognising that a GP referral of a woman to an NHS gynaecology department for EITHER “Abnormal bleeding" OR an “HRT query” is an artificial and desperately inefficient distinction leading to the duplication of admin and work. Many women’s symptoms require medical advice under both categories and this should be dealt with in a single appointment (as is done privately). It would probably save the NHS money on consultation costs in the long run.

Stepping off my soap box now but, in addition to the links I have included in my post upthread, you may also want to read the following:

www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=32595.0

These last two relate to teenage girls but the symptoms of hormone imbalance may ring some bells in older women too.

coyleinstitute.com/understanding-teenage%20hormone%20imbalance/

www.mdedge.com/pediatrics/article/206541/mental-health/consider-hormones-and-mood-adolescent-girls

OP posts:
Abcdefgh1234 · 18/01/2023 09:35

hi. I know its old thread. I’m having insomnia now. Really similar with your problem. How is it for you now? I’m still 34 years old though. But i dont have problem in my life and i’m not anxious or depressed i just simply cant go to sleep. Does hysterectomy helps? If its helps i want to do it to privately.

Boymummy22 · 06/02/2023 19:54

Hi I have just started deslogesrol and since taking it I had bad headaches sweating and I feel like my heart is skipping a beat I can feel it in my throat I don’t take any other medication and was fine till I started this doctor said it’s the progesterone and to continue but I really don’t want to had anyone else had this symptoms

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