website about opera for children (Turandot)

[ZZZenAgain]

dd's choir is rehearsing from Turandot atm and I am trying to find a website on the opera which is aimed at children (she's 9) - synopsis etc

Had a google but didn't find anything. Could anyone recommend a site?

Metropolitan Opera website has synopses for most operas.

thank you drayford, I'll have a look on their site. I did find one online but it was very detailed and not aimed at children. Too lazy to rewrite it.

found it now under "Educator Guides" on their site. It's brilliant, just what I needed. Thanks very much!

YVW

Drayford, good to see you around. Very coincidentally I recently posted on a thread about singing lessons in which you had posted late last year. You gave expression to some of my concerns, which I couldnt quite identify, about teaching to music exams. I am grateful for your insight.

(Sorry to hijack Zzzzen)

hi there maggie. How's things? I don't feel like I "own" threads or anything bonkers like that, you don't need to apologise.

And I hijack threads all the time come to think of it...

Good to know ZZz.

We're still at it and for the most part it's very good but when it's bad it's very bad.

Hope it's going well for you and your dd.

I changed teacher maggie. Much happier with it now because her approach feels more right to me.

dd started playing in a strings ensemble in September (is your dd in some kind of orchestra set-up?). She absolutely loves it and it is her favourite activity. I watched the teacher the first time we went and I pick up on a bit when I come to pick dd up. I thought she had a much more peaceful and child-orientated way of doing things and so I asked her if she would teach dd which she is now doing.

When I spoke to this new teacher about things, she said it is often good to change teacher after say 11/2-2 years because even dc have been hearing the same things, they are said differently by a new teacher and may actually reach the child better for that reason.

Dd is not getting as many pieces to work on (used to be 6+ new pieces a week), she is spending more time on them which I prefer and the teacher is playing with her during the lesson a great deal more. She ssays she sometimes gets dp saying they find she is taking it too slowly and should step up the pace!

If dd had not actually chosen violin herself, I think I would have preferred a more simple instrument. Really if I had the choice to go back in time, I would have steered her firmly towards something else. Would you? She's on top of things at the moment and enjoying it but I expect we will have plenty of difficult things to get through as she progresses to more challenging music.

I say "we" but am hoping really it will soon be a "she" and I can totally step out of it. Have stepped back a lot now, don't monitor it much or anything but the first year was hard work for me too.

I've been away from mn for a few days and just saw this.
I'm glad that you're happier now. It's very difficult to know in advance if a teacher change is the right move so it must be quite a relief.
We changed teachers too last term. A lot of it had to do with timetabling and the fact that her first teacher is a professional musician who was often away. But dd loved her and I know misses her a lot. New teacher is Russian man who is not as much fun and I think that after a term dd is still not very relaxed with him. However, she is still making good progress although I think that she has lost a bit of the joy and spontaneity which she had with other teacher. His method seems very formulaic and is exam oriented - has your dd started to do exams?
At school, I believe she will be able to join the strings ensemble and the orchestra next year so that should be exciting.
Through the retrospectoscope would I steer her toward something else? - I don't think so. Violin was her choice too although now she's curious about keyboard, recorder and loves her ocarina. But it's obvious that she loves violin. One day she was playing a piece and she said 'music can actually make you cry' and I knew that at that moment she was actually moved by the music.
We'll keep on keeping on for now. I still sit in on her lessons mainly so that I can try to help with her practice. But I know there will come a time soon when I won't have a clue and at that point will just hover during practice to cheer her on

well since I just didn't know anything about playing the violin, I felt unable to judge if the teaching was right or not. I do think she was an eminently capable teacher but the fun factor was close to zero. She was also Russian come to think of it, so maybe that just is the Russian School. It was quite a slog (for me) the first year, getting to the point where dd could read the music, get the rhthym right, the fingering etc because I didn't have a clue. She very much enjoys playing the violin so I think like your dd, it was the right instrument for her and she chose it because she liked the sound.

However, I never felt myself a natural "violin-mother" if there is such a term. We got there in the end, I have pretty much washed my hands of it now, seems to be taking care of itself. I just pay, chauffeur and encourage but I don't try to figure out what a 9/8 tact (fgs) is supposed to sound like etc anymore.

I haven't gone down the exam route. I thought it would be unnecessarily stressful for my dd but maybe your dd will enjoy passing the different grades and get a sense of achievement out of it.

That's very encouraging, the prospect of letting her get on with it.
But how I identify with the zero fun factor! No amount of stickers at the end of a lesson can make up for it.

how long is the lesson Maggie?

35-40 mins.
You metioned that dd's new teacher plays with her more during the lesson. My dd's old teacher used to play with her and dd loved it - she would beam at the end. This doesn't really happen anymore and I just think that surely fun should be incorporated into lessons for young children. Sorry if I sound like I'm moaning (but I am!) - it seems like dd's spirit to fly has been diminished.
Do you think I should mention to him that she doesn't seem to be enjoying it anymore?

sounds like you now have the type of lessons dd had before and we now have the type of lesson you used to have.

Can you change again?

Dd's lessons used to be: bit of quick chat, tune the violin, play 1st piece of hw, comments what was wrong, should be improved for next week, next piece etc through all 6 or so. Then she'd whip out the new pieces and go through them each once. Dd had to just play them straight off and she'd correct any fingering dd had got wrong. Sometimes she'd play a piece through once to show how it should sound but not always. When she was teaching some new aspect, she'd demonstrate and dd would try a couple of times and have to work on it over the week. She really had to figure it all out for herself (or I did).

That was 45 minutes, it was nicer in the very beginning when it is all quite easy but I could see dd wilt once the pieces got more and more demanding.

The new teacher plays more with dd and plays parts of a new piece through wth her bit by bit helping her learn it. There are always dc still there when you arrive to start and coming in before you're finsihed which dd isn't used to and it disrupts the lesson a lot but cf what we had, I prefer it.

I expect progress will be slower now but I feel it is good to spend more time on things, in particular hearing and finding the right note which this teacher does thoroughly but gently. The stress has gone out of it. It is not 100% how I'd like from the time, the comings and goings etc but the actual teaching is much more child-orientated.

I think the soviet system must have been very results-orientated and the dc had lessons several times a week, so I suppose teachers were picking up on mistakes faster and could really move them along. Maybe under those conditions the style our old teacher used (lessons 3-4 times a week) would have been very effective.

My reasoning is: if you have a dc who is a musical genius, that dc will already be performing and winning awards or being taught by a prof at the conservatory, if that's not the case (i.e. ours) what's the big rush?

just thinking maggie your little girl is still really quite young. Seems a shame when she enjoys violin for the lessons to be taking the fun out of it. Can't help wondering whether it isn't better to have fewer lessons/less regular lessons but with the teacher she loved learning from. I suppose that musician wouldn't have been able to recommend someone who could cover for her when she was away for longer than a week or two?

There's a lot of resonance in our experiences. The difference is in the rate of introduction of new pieces and altho we've only been with him for a term she's really only played her 3 exam pieces. Typical class would be we go in and he asks how she is, she plays scales, arpegs, then an exam piece while he corrects fingering, bowing if necessary, a bit of sight reading, he plays the piano and asks her to identify a note in relation to another named note, stickers, goodbye. His style is so different to old teacher which I don't have a problem with in principle but he writes nothing down. So of course I'm the scribe and things are left to my interpretation . There does not seem to be a logical structure to his lesson in terms of introducing her to concepts or theory and then building up on these from week to week iyswim. As a matter of fact I get the feeling from his suggestions of buying one book or another that he expects me to help her with much of the theory. You would have thought that since he's entering her for the exam he would talk us through the various elements of the test and draw connections between whatever was being taught and these elements. Contrast with old teacher who would write down brief notes during the lesson so that she would know what she was doing well or not so well and this would serve as a practice plan.
she'd start lesson with piece dd had been working on and if dd was playing that very well she'd introduce new piece - they would both clap the rhythm, sing it then dd would play the piece, sight reading and maybe a game at the end.

I recently took her to see someone who lives very close to us who old teacher had recommended but whom we never managed to link up with before. She thought that dd was good in some areas and that she's a quick learner. But she was a bit dismayed by her bow hold which she says will cause her difficulty in time. Current teacher does mention bow hold weekly and that dd need to be more relaxed but I think just mentioning it alone is not going to solve it. I understand that there are bow games to help but perhaps he does not use this technique.

This person was quite friendly and had a very logical approach. I also think she would introduce a fun element. Afterwards I tried feeling dd out about how she felt about her (in preparing her for the meeting I had just told dd that someone wanted to hear her play). DD is quite smart and said that she did not want to keep changing teachers but I know that generally she does not like change.

For the time I think I'll continue a bit with current teacher and perhaps have a chat with him about some of the issues (as tactfully as I can).

I don't want to rush her but I think there needs to be some consistency to her learning. Old teacher, from information from a friend whose son she teaches, would have been away for Dec and January. Not sure if a stop gap teacher would work in those situations.

I know this has been long winded so thanks for reading and for your suggestions.

hmm it doesn't sound all that great to me (but maybe I am equating your experiences with our own). When I spoke to the current teacher about whether she thought I should change, she said she had noticed that my dd's hold was not optimal. She asked me how the lessons went and advised first discussing it with the teacher we had and trying to change. Essentially what you are doing.

When I brought something specific up, T1 would comment on it during a lesson more, however she did not do what I would have liked her to do which is actually work on it in a child-orientated manner during the lesson. I did ask her specifically to do this but she did not I think have a training whihc included how to do this in a playful manner IYSWIM? I had a trial lesson with T2 which was what I imagined a lesson should be like - and she advised me to change afterwards. I feel quite lucy she was able to squeeze dd in, she is very much in demand but wish as I said below, she had a bit more time and it was not all so crowded, one student piling i n on the next etc. In fact I'd rather pay extra for a longer lesson to avoid that but she just doesn't have time to fit more in.

For this reason, (hit me hard if I'm mad ) I am also trying to set up an additional lesson for dd every fortnight with a very qualified (elderly) teacher who has trained some very successful musicians. This sounds very pushy. Actually she was recommended to me by a music teacher dd used to have at school who was just lovely to dc so I think this woman has time, experience and she will have the kind of approach I prefer. At the time she was recommended to me though our timetables didn't match up which is why we started with the Russian teacher.

This T3 (!) is away at the moment but I am hoping we could have a more tranquil lesson with her every second week in which dd could be guided along to progress with new things if the teacher is willing to consider that

I find T2 really does know how to teach to dc. She reacts when they look tired or frustrated and changes the pace/a ctivity (our previous teacher did not for instance). You can be a great musician I can imagine without having the knack for dealing with dc.

I am very happy with the change though and I found despite the quite rapid progress dd made with T1, her hold and stature left something to be desired. T2 has very gently but successfully altered that in just two lessons. As to bow hold, Dd gripped too tightly and she has learnt to loosen her hold now. I liked the way this taacher worked on that for instance. This as opposed to T1 who would comment on it to me and I would tryand figure out some way of dealing with it during the week IYSWIM. Oh the joy...

You are lucky you have some options : continue wtih current teacher, change to the one you had a trial lesson with. (Could you not have a month or two double lessons maybe). I know it gets expensive but really you need a lesson your dd can learn from. You also perhaps have the option to go back to the previous teacher. They are probably all good teachers but do they get through to your dc? I think that is key really, otherwise I can see a dc getting frustrated and giving up.

Wonder if your teacher would be prepared to work with a theory book alongside the actual violin lesson, so you and dd have a better grasp of what is going on theory-wise?

sorry I ramble on so much maggie. Another thing just ocurred to me: Yes, two months break is long but I have noticed that dd sometimes progressed a great deal when she had no lessons for a few weeks (T1 was a professional musician too so she was also off for 4 weeks at a time now and then). She would want to compensate for it by having twice as many lessons each week when she got back though !

If your dd were in some kind of ensemble/orchestra group and I would say as far as what she can do, she should be able to start now. I know dc her age in mini-orchestras, trainee orchestra set-ups, she would still be attending those practice sessions and practising her orchestra pieces at home. So long as you could tune the violin in your teacher's absence (electronic tuner), that would probably be ok.

No I won't hit you. There are times when I think 'just relax about it, it will all fall into place' except that I know that you have to work at getting what you want. I accept that I won't find all that I'm looking for in one teacher but I do expect that I should get a general sense of things going well which I don't think that I am at the moment.

Have you had a chat with dd about the prospect of being taught by T2 and T3? I'm wondering if there is a chance of there being conflicts in the way things are taught, emphases etc. Would you consider your dd being taught by just T3? I'd be surprised if T2 was happy with a co-teacher but I suppose it might depend on exactly how much 'teaching' T3 would be doing.

BTW, how did your withdrawal from T1 go down with her? If I withdrew dd from T2 I would need to give a term's notice - I think we would have to pay for the term and flee!

I understand where you're coming from about considering T3 though. I spoke with the peripatetic violin teacher at dd's school who is a retired lady who is quite respected. The thought occurred to me that I could put her into the school's programme and so I spoke with this teacher who said that they would not place her with her year group but with older children of a similar ability since she would have already had grade 1 by the time she started at school in yr 3. The downside is that she would be taught in a group of about 4 once a week for 30 mins compared to having one to one. The teacher does not believe that a child should attend the school lesson and be privately tutored by someone else which I can agree with on a number of levels. Teacher does do private lessons but apparently has a long waiting list. (She has said tho that she teaches a girl at school and also privately but I suppose there is no conflict)

I suppose options are: stick with T2 and hope that things get better, go back to T1 and and let dd just enjoy tuition whenever she gets it, go to T3 and hope that she'll be good for dd, go to T4 (at school and/or privately if it's possible to get a space). Would not wildly consider double lessons even for a short time mainly bcos of dd's personality but I'm sure that T2 would not have any of that (and I would not expect dd to have to keep it under wrap).

I must say that the bow hold problem sounds the same - dd is gripping it and T2 just telling her to relax it has not changed it.

Things that I would like in a teacher - firm but friendly; logical and structured approach; attention to posture, bowhold and technique and working on these; awareness of children's needs limitations and adapting to these; stimulating, inspiring. Perhaps I'm asking for too much.

Looking at the features that I'd like in a teacher I think that it must be difficult to teach (esp a young child) and bring all of these elements together in 30 mins! So you're right - a great musician won't necessarily make a great teacher but oh how I wish....

I don't want to be mean - dd has learned a lot in 4 terms (altho 3 of those were with T1) but I still cannot understand the 'hands off' approach with the bowhold. I was speaking with an ex LSO musician today who said that a bad bowhold will eventually mean that someone will not be able to progress and she has seen where bad habits have become so entrenched that they cannot be undone. This brings me back to T1 - altho dd loved her and she taught dd well she was relaxed about the bowhold and I remember dd used to sometimes have her fingers a quarter way down from the end of the bow (at least it seemed that way but it surely was not the couple of inches away from the end as I understand it should be) and I recall asking T1 about it bcos it looked odd and she said 'but dd knows where to hold her bow'. That was me told!

On your point about orchestras - dd would be able to play in the school one next year I believe.

Your dd sounds happy and thriving and I find that to be very inspiring. Do you think we could end up with the same results in the end if we adopted a more hands off approach? If yes, that's it then - problems sorted.

I would really like to just have T2 but for a longer lesson and with less disruption. However atm I can't have that.

If T3 is willing, I would explain the set up to her and try it. Dd not thrilled at the idea of more lessons but she would try it. We have not yet met this teacher and have no idea how it would pan out. If it was similar in style to T2 but more tranquil etc, I think I would eventually change to just having that lesson. I think T2 would be fine with it. She is really just squeezing dd in because she likes her and wants to help out but her timetable is jam-packed. One lesson following close on the next, no breaks inbetween and she leads one ensemble(dd's) and a youth orchetra too.

Disentangling ourselves from T1 was quite easy because (to my shame I admit it here), I lied and said that dd had to concentrate on school work for a while because it had become so demanding so we would be taking a break from violin. I gave her a gift and thanked her for everything and we left on good terms so far as I know.

not sure that I agree with your T4 that a group lesson is ok for violin really without any private tuition. I suppose you could try it for a term but unless she was supplementing that with a private lesson now and again, I am not convinced that would be great. I should think the dc would need a dp at home who knew a fair bit about violin or a private lesson to progress. Not that I know much but it really is not the easiest instrument. I think of your options, the T3 sounds best if she would teach privately, not be away too much and have playful elements, some theory teaching involved in her lessons. That would really encompass the lot.

have not encountered bow hold games. Shame.

T2 is getting dd to hold bow pointing straight up before the lesson begins and then she tries to pluck it out of dd's hand. If it doesn't come up easily, the grip is too tight. She did this again and again (but gently) during the first lesson. I saw her do that so the week that followed I did it once with dd before her lesson began.

Could take a while to undo a bad habit though. Dd also has a tendency to stick her tummy forward when she plays and T2 has been gently getting her to move her tummy back, thus straightening her back a bit. I think you do need to sort these things out

I would say go carefully - it sounds as if you're very happy with T2 save for the time pressures/hectic schedule of teacher. If you could make sure that you would be happier all round with T3 then your change would be justified but it would be very disappointing I'm sure if you changed and felt it was not the better thing for your dd after all. I know it's difficult to know for sure.

Your T2 sounds like out potential T3 (not T4 who is peripatetic teacher at dd's school). T3 is a professional violinist but bcos of family commitments she would not be away for long periods. She also teaches at an independent school and at home and admits to having a very busy schedule. She sounds like she does not need to take on another student and she said that dd's playing was good but she was very concerned about the bowhold. She says she uses bowgames (not sure what these involve). I remember when we were first trying to figure out what to do with dd musically I sat in a Suzuki class and they spent a fair amount of time with very young children playing a game with the bow - it was years ago but I recall the teacher putting a hula hoop on the end of the bow which the child would get to eat at the end -I think the objective was to attain proper balance.

I'm not going to rush at the moment but I am going to have a word with current teacher and think things through carefully.

If bowhold and posture are not sorted I will probably tell him that those are the reasons for leaving if we do leave as I think they would be the main reasons. I believe that some teachers may feel that parents, especially the untrained, are not in a position to question the teacher's methods etc but it's obvious to me that if a fundamental problem is not corrected then there's not much point to continuing.

W're going to look back and smile I'm sure...

coming down with something and feeling too awful to tackle anything this week I think maggie, so will have time to slow down and follow your advice!

We will smile, will we!

It might be a great opportunity to snuggle under the covers and have a good think. Hope you feel better soon!