Calling all violin players/teachers - quick question..................

[FAQinglovely]

we have (finally) managed to get DS1's violin out without DS3 being present to "help". Anyhow, he's doing group (15 in his group!) lessons at school.

I was dubious after I went to watch the "concert" at the end of the Christmas term as to the "quality" of the teaching - but he was keen to conitnue this term when they offered lessons for just £10 (including istrument hire) so he's been learning). The first term was the free taster lessons for the entire YR2.

He's still basically at the plucking stage (think they've done a little bow work but not entirely certain) - and although they have (according to DS1) started to look at proper music written down it's still in the form of

333
222
3212333

(type of thing).

I'm not too worried about that - being a musician myself I know it's not the end of the world if they start off this way and learn the relation between the 321 and the written notes later.

What does concern me is his hold. He can show me how to hold it properly - out to the side but when he's playing these little tunes he's holding it right in front of him so he's looking down the violin at his fingers and along to the music.

So to get to the question

How much should I be "pushing" (for want of a better word) the correct position with him?? Will the confidence with the hold and correct fingers to move (and therefore to hold it in the right place) come in time - or should I encourage him from now to hold it out to the side and to "get used" to the mistakes he may make?

He seems to have a good ear - he knew he'd played plucked the wrong string the first time through the little piece (which they were only given last week).

And he's picked out quite a few tunes on the toy piano at home - knowing when he's hit the wrong note and trying again until he finds the "right" one.

I don't want to push the correct hold all the time now at this stage if it's something that's going to come in time. But I don't want to not push it if it's absolutely vital he gets used to it from the start

My DD1 (grade 2 violin) played at a festival yesterday where the adjudicator went on and on about technique particularly stance and correct hold. He said if you didn't get it right early on it would eventually (not sure when) impede/stop progress. My DDs teacher said she felt vindiacated about drumming into the children so much. DD2 has just started with same teacher and there is a real emphasis on how to stand and hold the violin before they play a note. So I guess from what I've seen people do think it is impt (but I'm no epxert)

see that's what I'm thinking - I went to a specialist music school where I saw fantastic players going RIGHT back to basics to get their hold correct, and one boy whose hold had been so bad for so many years he'd developed problems with his tendons and stuff...

But then I don't want to push it if it's the "wrong" thing to do.

My DD1 and DD3 both play the violin - they have group lessons (3 or 4 in the group) and the teacher is absolutely fanatical about stance and hold. You get parents whinging from time to time about the apparently slow rate of progress at first, but he doesn't let them get away with a thing with regard to correct hold, finger positions etc.
So you are right to be concerned IMO.
Disclaimer, I know sod all about this myself, but the teacher organises a demo for parents every year where he goes through all this and shows us what to look out for.

Yes - I agree, hold really important - and he shouldn't be looking at the violin at all - its OK to look before you start pizz ing but once you start you should be going from the feel of it.

thanks - thought so - but not actually being a violin player (I did the pitch tests when I was his age 7/8yrs old to decide whether I would get the school violin lessons and was told I was "totally unmusical and would never play a musical instrument" PMSL) I didn't want to be "pushing" the wrong things.

When we practice tonight I'll make sure we work on the not looking at the violin he's definitely got a good ear so I know he will be able to hear if the notes are wrong rather than seeing.

.........really need to buy a music stand too - I was sat there holding the "music" for him at the right level last night .

I kmow they sing this little song (something along the lines of - we pick the violin up and hold it to the sky, something something something...........but sadly doesn't seem to be a big emphasis on it ).

FAQ - yes, music stand at a good heigh so that he is not looking down.

I hold my violin/viola at about 30 - 35 degrees if you draw a straight line through my shoulders - but it moves and its really good to be able to get flexibility in your left shoulder - although this is particularly difficult when you are starting and everything feels so unnatural.

Its really important to make sure that he has a shoulder pad or rest in a place that helps - you might need to help him experiment with where to put whatever he uses so that the violin feels safer. A duster tucked under his jumper on his shoulder might also help.

well as an "improvement" from their first terms lessons I noticed he does have a shoulder pad of some description shoved onto the violin now.........whether it was actually "placed" on the violin properly (or just shoved on as I suspect is the case) is another matter.

I feel totally and utterly out of my depth with DS1 and his violin playing

I know what you mean. My dd has been learning violin for nearly a year now (her idea not mine) and there is so much to it. I couldn't in a million years learn to do it myself. I think our teacher moves too fast tbh. Moves too fast for me anyway. I would rather she had spent a lot longer on basic stuff like hold. She checks every lesson but I have to keep an eye on it in practice too. (Don't know the first thing about violin myself). Actually I was thinking about starting a thread about that... another story.

Can't link to the page but have a look at youtube under "Violin Lesson #1- Holding the Bow". You should get someone called Professor V. I found his videos quite helpful when I was trying to make sense of dd's lessons for myself.

ZZen - ask me any questions you want - am qualified viola (violin) teacher, even though not doing that at the moment...

hmm - I think perhaps DS1 is finding these violin lessons a little easy.

He's come home with another piece of music today (again written out in the 3 (rest) 3 (rest) 221 type format). They were given it today

I said about making sure he held it properly and he did and played the blasted piece of music perfectly without looking at his fingers at all - first time through correct

FAQ that's great. I did grade 4 after a year and a half, when I took it up aged 10 - so as he's come from a musical household, don't be surprised with rapid progress.

I do wonder whether you should be writting the music out for him properly with the numbers above it so that he can get used to associating the note on the stave with the note on his violin and the finger he is using...

thanks mistlethrush, the violin teacher is coming this evening in fact. I just think she gives dd too much homework - maybe 6 new pieces a week (admittedly they are short and she is only using the first position but what with the fingering on the different strings, the dynmaik and all the rest of it, I just find it too much).

I brought that up last week and asked if dd could get less homework and go a bit more slowly and she said that basically dd can do it and that she knows the notes (actually she is not such a great sight reader and does not always recognise them), she wants to move dd along onto the second position.

She says since dd can always do the homework by the next week, she wants to keep moving her along but she can do the homework because I put in a lot of work WITH her IYSWIM (not that I know what I'm doing exactly).

I just don't know what the big rush is. I don't expect her to be a professional violinist. Maybe this is just normal practice though, I have no idea.

sorry FAQ for derailing a bit. Just thinking ahead to this evening, I think I needed to get it off my chest.

I do kind of dread these lessons and the words "Ok dd this is your homework for this week"

dynamics sorry not dynamik !

mistle - I did wonder about that. Only problem is I would have a clue which notes they relate too - you may have to help me out LOL - last nights piece of music I figured out it was on the A string, but couldn't tell you "which" A.........

I'm also going to go into the school and put his name down for the individual lessons, apparently there's usually waiting list, and he probably won't get individual lessons until September at the earliest, but at least if his name is down and a space comes up he can have it.

I know I mentioned on another thread that if he "took" to it I'd look at individual lessons for him to make sure he's got more "time" spent on his hold/technique etc.

And the rate he picked that piece of music up last night I can see that he's going to get really bored soon as they can only progress as fast as the slowest in the group (of 15)....

We managed a whole 2 1/2 minutes of violin practice last night - before I could bear no more to hear him play through all of his short pieces of "music" that he had on his practice sheets - the new piece we did in ermm, 30 seconds - as I made him play it through a 2nd time to make sure the first wasn't a fluke

It's not just me being daft is it? A child that plays a piece of music perfectly the first night after he's seen it for the first time really needs to be moving on to something slightly more taxing don't they..........

ZZZen - don't worry about it - it's all violin related so all relevant

oh dear

This is what the violin teacher sas too. I suppose it is right then to keep moving them onwards. She said more or less what you just said FAQ. At least you are a musician so you know what is what.

When I realised dd was learning everything by ear and off by heart when she was supposed to be reading and playing by sight, I made little cards with a violin key on one side and the notes (a string in green; d string in red). One note per card and the name on the other side and she would pick up a card, look at the note, play it pizzicato and then on the piano (just for sound) and then she'd flick it over to see if she got the name right.

(As I said I don't know what I'm doing, I kind of fumble along but she was happy to do that for a week or so and that did the trick).

We never had this 3 2 1 thing though, we had the notes from the beginning.

I think that she's probably worried that your daughter might get bored.

When I am teaching youngsters I try to do a balance - I will get a more difficult piece that they might need to look at a couple of lines or the first half to start with before going onto the next section - which has to be done over quite a number of weeks to get the fluency, phrasing, dynamics etc all correct - but then some shorter pieces that can be done in a single week are great alongside this to keep the interest.

Doing violin practise WITH your daughter is really helpful for your daughter - my mother always used to play with me (she played piano whilst I played violin) and it really helped me. As long as your daughter is not put off by doing the practising and you can cope, going fast to start with is a great way of getting to a more interesting stage where your daughter will be able to play more interesting music. You might want to help your daughter recognise notes and connect them with the violin by doing some 'flash' note cards so that as part of her practise, you show her a card and she plays the note (this does depend on you being able to spot if she's playing the right one - but you could always have the string and the finger marked on the back for your information!)

Thanks mistlethrush. Might have known the teacher was getting it right, I just am a bit out of my depth with violin, so it would suit me if it was a little slower IYSWIM. However I see it is not to be.

Does sound like individual lessons might suit your ds better FAQ

god I must sound like a right pushy parent "My child is being held back"

no no! You don't sound at all pushy to me. But you're a musician so you can see what your dc can do and recognise that he needs to progress. I don#t know what is standard for violin so I don't know whether the teacher is moving dd too fast or not.

Truth is, I don't know what I'm doing with it, so I would like an easier life with less input from me. We could pretty much swop lessons, couldn't we?

FAQ - no, I don't think you sound pushy at all. However, some children are going to learn faster than others - and if he is from an already musical family its not surprising that he appears to be picking it up easily and quickly.

a - 440 - above middle C. e a fifth above it, d a tone above middle C and G a fourth below C.

so a 2 on the D will be either f or f sharp, 2 on the a either c or c sharp.

If you can work out whether he is doing fsharps and c sharps or both naturuals - and whether its b naturuals on a 1st finger or b flats, you could work out what key he is learning to play in - then what I would be doing would be finding pieces that you can play on the piano/keyboard/organ with a part written out for him that uses the notes he can play, gives him slightly more complicated rhythms than he is used to using, and writes out the notes as well as the fingers - then you can play together. This should help with his timing and his tuning and give him overall confidence and a good flow.