Violin teachers - important basic technical points that you teach young children?

[maggiethecat]

Reading earlier post about shrieking cat I see where some teachers have alluded to the importance of getting basics right, eg bow hold.

What would you say are the really important elements that a young child should get a good grip of from early?

Holding the violin in as 'natural' a position as it is possible to hold the violin ie without shoulder unduely raised, and without head on one side; hand and arm under the violin as though they are supported by the violin and hanging off it (gently) - ie all in nice relaxed position, no bent wrist; bow - ideally held gently with relaxed fingers. Bow going straight ie parrallel to the bridge - which means that it feels as though you have to push it away from you at the bottom. Then drawing the sound out of the string rather than pushing down... Not much to think about then

Not sure it's a technical point, but DSs first teacher was very keen to get the children to actually listen to the sounds they made, rather than focussing on "putting their finger where he said on the string". One in the group had even been given sticky dots under the strings by a previous teacher to show where to put her fingers for certain notes, and he was horrified at that, because she was convinced the dots were what mattered and didn't even listen to the horrible notes!

AMum - the really interesting thing is that the violin will actually 'tell' you when you're playing in tune as it picks up on all the natural harmonics so will resonate more - so, for more advanced pupils (ie who can hold fairly confidently etc) - yes, listening to the violin is essential!

Mistle, you sound like you'd be a really good teacher. Although dd has been doing well and gets on with her teacher, I wonder about the way in which she has taught some of these elements. She'll correct dd if she is holding violin too high for eg but I cannot recall dd having instruction on how to hold the instrument, or head relative to instrument etc. I suppose that she'll pick these things up eventually.

Being relaxed is something we'll have to work on as dd is so keen on getting it 'right' it's obvious she's anything but relaxed!

Ds 2's teacher is very hot on bow hold, holding the violin up, keeping the bow straight on the strings and thumb position (I know all this as I sit in on the lessons and hear here reminding him all the time ). He's 7 btw.

having gone to a specialist music school (don't play the Violin) and seen myself, and other people (including violinists) have to go right "back to basics" with their instruments I would say the basics are absolutely essential. If the basics of the hold etc are right then everything else will be easier, and if they want to continue to a higher level when they're older they'll find it a hell of a lot easier.

I'm gritting my teeth and bearing DS1's violing lessons at school until the end of the summer term. From what I saw at their "performance" just before Christmas I WASN'T impressed - even I know how to hold a violin better than that.

If he decides he wants to continue with it into YR4 somehow I'l going to find the money for private lessons for him as I don't want him to be learning bad technique now............

FAQ - sounds the right thing to do. I had to relearn technique when I was 17 / 18 as it hurt if I played my VIOLIN more than about 30mins. I am now really a viola player - which is much more physically demanding than the violin - its longer, heavier and you need more bow weight to coax the tone out - and I can do 12 hrs of orchestral rehearsals in a weekend...

He needs to be in as natural a position as possible - head not over to one side, shoulder not up and gripping... the violin should be able to move - its really good to be able to move your lhs with the violin - ideally it should mirror the movements that the rhs is doing - the two sides of the body work best like that, and it stops the lhs stiffening up too much - the two sides go in the opposite direction...

yeah, well for the time being (and they only started having lessons at the start of yr3) I just can't afford the private lessons for him. I need to know that he's got some sort of aptitude for it and is serious about wanting to learn.

They started off with free lessons (in groups of 15 ) as introduction to it. Then they had the opportunity to continue - again in large groups - for £10 for the term, including the violin hire.

He seems to enjoy it, but obviously progress in such large groups is very slow so I'm hoping that if he decides in YR4 that he does want to continue he won't have had the chance to pick up too much bad technique.

So for now I grit my teeth, stick my fingers in my ears and go "la la la la la laaa" and pretend that he's got a good teacher teaching him the basics properly

FAQ - I know that you're musical which is a great start - my mother played the piano for all my violin practising at this age - which is great in terms of tuning. However, I'm sure that you could help with posture - which will help with tone - and make the whole thing sound less awful!

Is his shoulder raised? Is his head on one side? You might need to fiddle (sorry for the pun) with some shoulder rest modifications (added duster, added sponge) to help him get this right. This is something that the teacher probably has no time to do in a group lesson - but if he does carry on, better to try to improve things now.

Funnily enough I think that those large groups can actually help to get the basics right, because it's got to be broken right down into the various elements and checked and practised - which is why progress seems slow.

I teach recorder to a group of 6 boys - I was initially sceptical that this could work. But I found myself breaking everything down into steps, much more so than I would with a private pupil. I simply cannot let them make a horrible sound or I would go quite mad.

They won't learn their first 5 notes particularly quickly - but they may still have window panes at home.

20p - at least its fairly straightforward to actually hold the recorder without any problems! I think trying to get 15 children to hold their violins correctly in a lesson must be a nightmare!

having taught recorder to groups of around 10 I would say it's infinitely easier to teach a group of children the recorder than it would be the violin.

With something like the violin, where hold and posture are so vital to the playing of the instrument I really don't see how a group of 15 children can be taught well.

I, and a lot of my cousins, were initially taught violin by my aunt. She started all of us just playing open strings and we all got the bowing right quite quickly as we didn't have to think about anything else than the noise we were making. My grandmother (a very good musician, though amateur) said it never sounded horrible when I played, even very early on. I suspect my aunt was subjected to the worst of it, but that stage passed very quickly.

Getting a group of 10 children to have the left hand at the top of the recorder simultanteously is very difficult - even when I break it down and have a great group of kids.

But I spend longer doing it, so maybe it does go in better (hopeful emoticon)

20p - but when you think how 'easy' it is to hold a recorder compared to a violin, the fact you had problems with this just goes to show how difficult/unrealistic it is for violin. Another problem is that all children are different - so the shoulder rest set-up that is going to suit one child is going to be completely wrong with another and make them hold their violin incorrectly - and this leads to bad habits and/or horrible tone.

I have taught the recorder - and it's not that difficult to teach them - I managed it with a class of 13 children with special needs/SEN in Zimbabwe (and shocked everyone in the school when I decided that no way were they going to be the only kids in the school that learned an instrument to not enter the local "Eisteddfod" and entered the lot of them)

And at the end of the day - the breathing technique and the tonguing is what is vitally crucial to recorder playing (it was this that was I was taught so badly at primary school and had to "relearn" when I started music school). With a violing the posture and hold is vital.

A good place to ask a violin question!

In lessons dds teacher has her playing with straws stuck in the holes to keep the bow in the right position.

dd has been playing for a bit over a year and was invited to join an inter-schools string orchestra.

Of course dd doesnt want to be the only one with straws sticking out of her violin but she has gotten so reliant on them that when she takes them out her bow slides down the violin.

Any cures please?

remove straws, practice in front of mirror