Autumn / Winter 2025 Music

[northerngoldilocks]

Time for a new thread in time for the new school term!

Come and talk about music lessons, choosing instruments, exams, auditions, specialist schools, orchestras or whatever other music activities are going on. Everyone is welcome, from those with total beginners to those whose children are studying music at advanced levels. Ask for advice or share successes or struggles.

I believe MHCHS has Music and academic places for Y7 entry, I don't know how many or how it works though.

If I remember correctly off the top of my head, MHC offers 20 or 25 music places, and applications for those are around 150.

DAO has 10 music places and is usually considered a better option but I don't really know how their music provision and orchestras compare these days. It can change a lot by the time you apply @Compsearch but both are very good schools and not too far from each other so I think it's possible to find a catchment postcode for both somewhere in between.

MHC, DAO, Henrietta Barnett, QE, St Michaels Catholic and Latymer Grammar form a sort of cluster of super selective and partially selective state schools in N London and many people apply to all of them. For music, they tend to go to Guildhall as logistically easiest.

There is a similar cluster in the south, lots of friends in Sidcup for example had their choice of good and excellent schools, but I don't know that area in detail.

Co-ed obviously saves a lot of logistical headache, unlike eg Oratory that is probably better for musical boys and choristers and is very central so easy to do extra music, but leaves the question of finding another school for your DD.

Thank you @Ubertomusic that’s really helpful. I also thought we had plenty of time but DS will be year 4 in September and my understanding is that people start tutoring then?! It would be lovely to skip all that and try to get in somewhere via a music place but I’m sure that is a very high risk strategy, and we would still have to move house.

For Oratory - DS is not Catholic (though I am/(was baptised and confirmed though v much non-practising!) does that rule him out? I would definitely prefer co-Ed but that limits our options even further.

I'm not sure people tutor for MHC and DAO, at least there was no need to when we applied for my DS (admittedly a while ago). Technically, these two schools are not grammars and not that selective, I think doing past papers and some Bond would be sufficient, nothing really intense. Doing mock MAT would help for the first round of music admissions as it's an electronic sound unfamiliar to many classically trained children. Auditions at both schools will be very easy for a child of two musicians.

Grammars will require more tutoring for sure and they use different test formats, but FWIW DD sat first round for Henrietta recently with no tutoring whatsoever and nearly made it, to my surprise, despite people saying it's impossible without years of military drill 🤷‍♀️ DS ended up at Latymer grammar, also with no tutoring, but a) it was easier back then and b) he's an autistic maths geek so pretty much Latymer profile. Music at Latymer was decent but I hear they are focusing on STEM even more nowadays...

Friends started tutoring in the summer before year 5, got a place at QE which is one of the hardest grammars to get into. I think bright kids don't really need intense tutoring so I would take the hype about crazy tutoring with a pinch of salt - many people do that, there is no doubt, but I don't think it's absolutely necessary though regular prep would definitely help with the test formats.

Not sure if a child needs to be baptised soon after birth for Oratory. I know of someone at Oratory who is not Catholic but other Christian denomination which is low on Oratory oversubscription admissions list, mum did a lot of volunteering at church and the child is musical so it looks like there are possibilities...

From what I can see online people certainly do tutor intensively for DAO - there’s an 11+ forum where they have laid out their intense schedules starting from year 4. I’m very conflicted about this whole thing.

DS is not a stem geek or any kind of geek really - he’s a bright little boy who likes normal little boy things and obviously has grown up in a house with loads of books and parental support so has had major advantages even though we can’t afford to send him to private school (but also wouldn’t qualify for a bursary).

If we put ourselves and the kids through the massive upheaval of moving house for the sake of a school, I think we would have to go all in on the prep, but then that’s huge pressure for a child. DAO is appealing because I wouldn’t have to put my DD through the same thing but that’s unfair on DS and no doubt why it’s so competitive. I’m strongly considering sacking it all off and leaving the country! Anyway, sorry for the thread derail!

@Compsearch do remember that a comprehensive in London is often a very fine thing - and low stress! You don't need to leave the country - we were exceptionally unlucky with DD2 and the music failing at hers. She would have been fine otherwise. You don't need to be at a school with an 11 plus to thrive.

True comprehensives really do cater for pretty much everyone on pretty much everything and I can assure that the teaching in DD2's private school is NO better than it was in her state one (except for the music of course, but you can provide that).

As I come to the end of schooling in a world in which we've made some mistakes, changed tack a few times, dealt with Covid and generally made it up a bit as we went along, my conclusion is that both our daughters have mainly found their place when they've needed it.

It's easy to get sucked into this stuff.

Indeed. School isn’t everything. Two of DS’s choir contemporaries have got into oxbridge to read music as choral scholars. Both state school, with encouraging parents and lots of extra curricular stuff.

@Compsearch - is your DD likely to become a chorister too? If so then there is a very well worn path from Southwark to the girls CofE schools like Greycoat and Lady Margaret.

Thank you all - I think a bit of a reality dose is needed! The kids are very happy where they are at the moment so that is the main thing.

I went to a lovely grammar school with facilities and sports and music to rival most private schools in England, so was very spoiled and feel bad that my children will not experience the same thing. I am sorely tempted to move back home (to NI) and just send them there but there are many downsides to that too.

@Londonmummy66 it’s difficult to say as she’s only 5 but DD has shown none of DS’s early musicality so far 🤣. She’s very good at Maths and we’ve started her on piano which is suiting her well but her singing is still only borderline in tune…I suspect that might be still normal for her age but we have a warped perception because of DS.

It took me a year to teach one of DH's choristers to sing in tune - he went on to be a choral scholar at St John's Cambridge and then into ENO so never say never!!!

@Compsearch there is an awful lot to be said for happy. I'd take that above everything tbh.

There are many many things that could be better at our secondary school but it largely keeps them safe and they have good friends, everything else is a bonus! Academically it's not so far shut any doors for them but they are all hard workers so would probably have been fine anywhere. I think I would probably have still chosen this school out of all the ones in the council area if we'd had to choose. Thankfully in Scotland it's not the norm to go anywhere else except your catchment school.There are some enthusiastic teachers which I think counts for a lot. A lot of our frustrations are to do with the education system so would be the same anywhere. We have put our energy ( and money) largely into extra curricular music, which has worked for us. The kids then have two sets of friends. I love them knowing people all round the country and it's given them lots of confidence. Good friends are so important.

Hello! Does anyone have any experience with NYGE at all for classical guitars? I’m not sure what the deal is for the higher grades if the kids are still relatively
young?

I loved our regional classical guitar ensemble as a teen so I'd recommend it from the musical aspect of playing with others. Don't know the organisation though.

Curiously enough @chocolateisnecessary I met someone I used to know from a saturday school on a train recently whose daughter is in it. She was singing its praises - it's really good for those doing classical guitar who aren't often finding other opps to play with others, she says and there are some residentials at swanky boarding schools which are being enjoyed.

Think it's a lot of travelling the country. The level didn't seem insane - more like Grade 5/6 at Year 10 in her case, though she does play very well, so I'm assuming it's a little less intense on all that than something like NCO...

Don't know if any of that's any help? I

Fab, thanks! I'm a bit worried that he won't find that it stretches him enough as he's already hitting diploma level. He'll be auditioning for NYO on his other instrument and if he gets in (long shot I know!) wouldn't be able to do it if he's accepted a place at NYGE. Might cross bridges etc. I'm desperate for something classical guitar wise for him but really struggling to find something that works.

I think ensemble playing stretches in a different way. There might be social media content that shows some of the music. You could ask what the range of levels that they normally have, I'm sure they will want applicants to be a good fit.

I was on a double bass playing day a few months ago and in the advanced group we were playing a Bach chorale ( so very easy notes and timing) This group included professionals and conservatoire students. We could have spent all day on it, there's so much to playing together in a group. As an aside, I'm impressed at diploma level classical guitar, I found it insanely hard and required constant practice to be able to play anything!
NYO 2nd round audition results were end of September I think, can check back. 1st round was much earlier, maybe July?

Yes, that’s true re ensemble playing. I think he’d have to commit to doing it really early if he gets in which would rule out NYO.

As a grammar school parent I would caution against getting sucked into the belief that the 11+ requires intensive tuition from Y4. Most grammar school parents are not on internet 11+ forums posting about their regimes, so those who are do not reflect the norm. If kids need that sort of input to pass it probably isn't the right place for them and the view local to us is that kids who are borderline may well do better in the non selective environment where they are in the top % with all the confidence that comes from that. Some tutoring in Y5 to get used to the different skills some of the papers require and to cover the parts of maths that are in the exam but don't get taught until Y6 is a bonus (in our area algebra mainly - never understood why it is in the supposedly egalitarian exam when it's not taught in the state curriculum, but there you go), but the madness some parents engage in around the 11+ is not the norm.

Aw, tricky decisions to make. Is he doing NYO inspire this year to get an idea of the level (obviously not everyone is eligible for that) or does his teacher have an idea if it is realistic? Which instrument would benefit best from the opportunity? There are lots of other orchestra opportunities but I imagine fewer classical guitar ones. ( I think RCS used to do a summer school though).

Yeah, he’s done some Inspire this year. He’d be able to put a solid audition in with one really strong piece and extracts but the other piece would be an easier one so slightly on the lower side. He does want to try though. A lot of his friends from NCO will be trying so he’ll definitely want to put a tape in.

Easier piece isn't necessarily a problem, just needs to be played really well! I don't think many would play less than a grade 8 piece but obviously many pieces are maybe technically easier but need great interpretation and others may seem flashy but sit well on the instrument etc and many pieces would sit at the upper end of grades but harder to place. It's also partly down to luck as I know very good players who haven't got into second round. You might be able to look back at their social media as there is always stuff about what pieces they played for auditions etc. They place a lot of weight on excerpts and they all need to be prepared for second round but you don't get asked to play them all.

Thanks @MockCroc - are you in London? It seems to vary a lot by area. From what I’ve read there are some places where tutoring isn’t needed/needed only for familiarisation (like Kent) and others where it is done by everyone pretty much (like some of the north London ones mentioned on this thread). My sister in law is a tutor (albeit specialising in private schools) and says she has people getting on her waiting list from year 2-3 who are already at prep schools which seems nuts to me…what’s the point in paying for a prep if it’s not enough?!

Honestly though the more I think about it the less inclined I am to get into it…just sounds like a stressful experience for everyone involved. I would love to think my DH would help out but the homework/prep would blatantly be a task that fell to me and I have enough on my plate!

Hope everyone had a good half-term and ready for a music filled March! We have competitions, school exam, concerts galore. And it has finally stopped raining for the odd day.

A lot of his friends from NCO will be trying so he’ll definitely want to put a tape in.

This is where DD is at too. I don't think she's in the right place this year - even compared to her own best - so we're seeing it as a trial run.