Autumn / Winter 2025 Music

[northerngoldilocks]

Time for a new thread in time for the new school term!

Come and talk about music lessons, choosing instruments, exams, auditions, specialist schools, orchestras or whatever other music activities are going on. Everyone is welcome, from those with total beginners to those whose children are studying music at advanced levels. Ask for advice or share successes or struggles.

Thanks for the input on grants, everyone. It is made a bit trickier by them wanting a hefty deposit to secure the place, but I think I'll risk it. Good point about hyperbole, @achangeofnameisasgoodasarest, I hadn't thought of it that way. I'm sure they are talented at specialist school, of course, but they can't all have been playing Chopin at age two!

@N96 I realise the moment for advice may have passed, but... I think there's a lot of survivorship bias with pianos. The people whose kids went on to do great things hang out on these threads, while the ones whose kids lost interest don't. The latter may have serious regrets about the unused piano hulking in a corner of their house! My daughter started piano lessons, aged five, on an ancient keyboard on loan from the music centre, then I bought her a mini piano (like this https://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-and-Pianos/Keynote-Junior-Digital-Piano-and-Stool-White/6ODO), which was replaced with a 25 year old digital piano when she grew out of the tiny one. I turned down numerous offers of free acoustics along the way. I bought a proper digital piano this Christmas, several years in. Maybe she would have done better with a proper piano from the start, but other things would have made more difference (not playing everything by ear for four years, for example, or me noticing that she was only reading the first line and then improvising the rest in many of her pieces). If I were you I'd either buy a cheap, second hand keyboard for messing around on, or prioritise getting some lessons set up. You may find that the teacher has a lead on a loan or cheap second hand instrument, and you can always upgrade once you know you don't have to have a daily argument about practice.

Oh yes. A bad acoustic piano - out of tune, clanky keys - is far worse than even a mediocre digital one!

Thank you! That was a really kind offer. It turns out that, for once, it was them not me. So we now have parts and allocations 🙌

Glad you got sorted! If you child hasn't been before, they will feel a bit more confident if they have had a chance to listen to the music and do at least a wee bit of practice ( don't have to have mastered it!)

Anyone recommend best musical things to do/see in Salzburg and around? Some of you may have been.

Can anyone here help me with the difference between National Youth Choir (which now has a junior section from age 9 up) and National Children's Choir (which goes up for 19)? I can't really work our what the difference is, or which might be a better bet for my son to audition for in the autumn. He's a cathedral chorister, will be heading into yr 7 in Sept so will hopefully have a couple more years singing treble.

@GardensBooksTea National Youth Choir has had a younger section for as long as DD has been a member - she joined when she was 9 and is 14 now - so that’s not new. They used to call them Girls’ and Boys’ choirs and they were separate, but they have started doing more together now and have joint end of course concerts. A brilliant experience - I’ll link to one of the songs that they did together last year -

https://youtube.com/shorts/jhb8qsQq0J0?si=WyYDnEhiEJGu9nI

Can’t help with National Children’s Choir unfortunately.

Hello, question for the London parents - what state secondaries do you know that have a good music offering? (grammar or comprehensive) and any thoughts on whether this really matters?

DS is only in year 3 but we’re starting to think about this…which seems crazy! Our local school gets great results but is one of the high discipline no excuses type places with no extra curricular music…though perhaps that doesn’t matter too much really as DS will be able to do lots outside of school?

We would be willing to move house if need be so anywhere in or around London potentially of interest.

We are in Scotland so everyone pretty much goes to their catchment school ( unless there's a big issue). So I have no experience in choosing a school. I would say ours is enthusiastic about music rather than doing it to a high level. Part of the issue for us is that the school exams -nat 5 and highers instead of GCSE/ a level- are now deliberately pitched quite low to encourage participation so there's no challenge for more proficient students. Nat 5 is about grade 3 and higher is about grade 4, advanced higher grade 6. ( Genuinely was not the case when I did them!) This also leads to a lack of aspiration sometimes even from instrumental teachers. However, they do manage to get enough kids for two higher classes which is almost unheard of.
There is extra curricular music and mine have learnt different skills playing at school. (Patience, being supportive of friends etc). They definitely get their challenge from outside school and it was the key reason for our younger one to go to a JD. Her instrumental teacher was already excellent but she wanted to play in higher level ensembles. I guess it's a balance as to what's important, and what you can get elsewhere. You might be lucky to get a good experience all in one place as you have more to choose from.

@Compsearch - answer is 'yes and no' I think - isn't it always?

Probably, because you're musical yourself and your son does so much outside it won't matter much. In school music will likely always be at a level that doesn't challenge him in any state school but again that won't matter.

To get a musical cohort though you could look at state schools that have music scholarships - Kingsdale, Haberdasher's, somewhere called Saint Cecilia's I think - some catholic schools. The super selective grammars will be absolutely stuffed with Grade 8 kids who do music on the side but probably excel in STEM (because that is how their selection tests work).

But, as I say, with encouragement outside it doesn't matter. UNLESS they stop doing music GCSE and then A Level (which is what happened to us). A Level doesn't really matter as you can move for Sixth Form, but DD2 really wanted to do the GCSE. But that's because she probably wants to go to a high level uni to do music, it wouldn't have mattered for conservatoire because that's just on playing - you don't need the rest of it.

Two children from DD1's London school have gone off to conservatoire in the last two years - their music A level results won't reflect their ability in music at all (and the A Level in music won't run for DD2's year) but playing is done out of school anyway.

So pick a school with a decent music cohort, perhaps music places, and just be prepared that he'll still be way above everyone else unless its a grammar I guess is the answer.

Sorry, that's an essay!

But I was pondering it this weekend as DD2 went off and had a (successful) chat and sing with a big Oxbridge college for potential choral scholarships. She could never have done that from her state school unless she'd also been a chorister, and we had never even heard of people being a chorister so that wouldn't have happened. Even though she's an NYC member, she just wouldn't have had the experience of sacred choral singing, nor the confidence.

As it was, the psalm singing, sight reading etc didn't phase her after two years of her new school choirs - helpful that hanging around a cathedral all the time makes it all less intimidating too.

When I went to uni, I'd only done Les Miserables medlies in my school choir and had to learn it all at my much less prestigious and non-auditioning chapel choice. Psalms still panic me!

Thank you @horseymum and @achangeofnameisasgoodasarest - all makes sense! I think probably what I’m aiming for is somewhere he will have lots of friends with similar interests, even if the level at school isn’t that high, if that makes sense?

My school music was brilliant - still way below the level I did outside school - but key for me was that loads of my friends from school were also in my extra curricular music outside - it was a massive social thing for me and made my teenage years very happy. At primary DS is already a bit of an outlier so I don’t want that to continue ideally. Maybe grammar is the answer then? He is bright but no idea what that all involves.

Also well done to your DD on going to sing at the weekend @achangeofnameisasgoodasarest - sounds like it went really well. When are the actual auditions?

DS has started the ramp up process from probationer to full chorister and is loving it. I feel incredibly grateful that he is getting this opportunity for free! Even though logistics of getting him to rehearsals are a nightmare…

@Compsearch - thanks. you have to get a place at the uni first and she's Year 12! So it will very much depend anyway, but it was very helpful for DD1 to see whether she might 'fit'. Apparently these pre auditions are quite normal, I didn't know.

She's an odd candidate- looks completely 'establishment' on paper given her current school and interests, but of course it's all so very recent that she's had these opportunities!

Evensong was divine (we stayed to listen) and she was captivated, and the DoM did make an effort to understand where she was coming from in terms of choral experience so that was great.

I think what it told us that, whether it's this college or another, there would be a choral space for her at uni if she got the place - and I think it told her she would like that very much but might prefer a less high commitment choir than this one.

Well done to your DS - feel for you on the logistics though!

Ah that’s interesting - the timing has changed as back in my day the choral auditions were first. I think sometimes this led to strong suspicions that the very best singers (esp the men in eg kings and Johns) might get a bit of a leg up in the process, so sounds fairer now!

I think if your DD wants to play the bassoon a lot at uni then a less full on commitment choir is probs a good idea…there are only so many hours in the week!

Thank you - sounds fab! Good to hear she's enjoyed it so much.

Hello all

As it happens DS is going to a choral scholars open day at St John's Cambridge this weekend too! And hoping to also sing at the DoM of Kings, though he's being a bit elusive.

I think at Oxford you have to audition for choral scholarships before you get an academic offer, whereas at Cambridge it's afterwards. Which makes more sense And then of course there's the factor of actually getting the grades to get on to the course!

DS, though I say so myself, smashed it out of the park as Tony in West Side Story last week, A number of people have said he could do it professionally. Which is great, but confuses the future options even more! Music degree, musical theatre at conservatoire, academic degree with music on the side, liberal arts degree including music, etc etc.

And the fact that on the UCAS form you can only put one personal statement, but he wants to study different subjects at different universities. Crikey. Glad he's only y12 for now, and some of this will sort itself out.

Maybe partially selective comprehensive schools with music places but no pressure? Oratory, Dame Alice Owen's spring to mind but there must be others too. DAO is co-ed and has sibling policy, I really liked it when I researched schools for my DS but it was a while ago and things change.

Music at grammars very much depend on the particular grammar, many are focussed on STEM these days so music won't be a strong interest for the cohort, even with all grade 8s on the side.

@herbaceous we have the same - but it's liberal arts/music and I think it's understood that they'll have one statement. And conservatoire you apply separately with a separate statement so that's OK.

Good luck to him at John's - not that he will need it. Don't know whether DD will bother with choral open days now- perhaps at Oxford - as at least this has told her what she needs to know. Probably needs to get on with her A Levels.

@Compsearch - I'm glad the cathedral is going well. TBH I think that musically obsessed kids rarely find their tribe at any London day school. Mine relied on the cathedral and JD for that. The two main exceptions that I know of are Tiffin - my DDs played in TYO and were always being sent posts about the boys mucking around on their instruments at lunchtime and Graveney. Graveney has a specialist music strand which has always been excellent and its A level music results are supposed to be amongst the best in the country. Both schools are exceptionally difficult to get into though.

DS had an absolute blast at the St John's choral open day. Sang for the DoM, who said he was a 'very strong candidate', sang with the Gents (the informal acapella group) and evensong, in that extraordinary chapel with amazing acoustics. The college itself is so beautiful. He now wants to go there and study music. Just the small problem of getting the grades now, and hoping his not entirely stellar GCSEs won't hold him back.

Also sang for the DoM of Kings, who was enthusiastic but recommended he gets more experience singing in cathedrals. Not entirely sure how much more experience he can get, having spent four years and many summer holiday courses singing in cathedrals, but there you go. He was very 'well, it's Kings' to any questions about commitment etc!

So glad he had fun @herbaceous! Sounds very, very positive. How funny though, I thought he was all 'definitely not studying music' from what you've said - how these year 12s change their minds!

DD2 is still vacillating hugely between subjects. Her gcses are not 'perfect' either, but I suspect more likely to be acceptable for music than for English Lit. She had a brief flirtation with Classics, but would have to do it from the beginning and I don't think she loves it enough.

We've been checking the different college websites for what they want for music, but they all want something different! One wants a foreign language (suspect basic Spanish won't be cutting it), one wants grade 8 theory even if they have the A Level (that WON'T be happening), lots want grade 5 piano but one wants grade 6 and some are prescriptive on what other A Levels they do.

DD2 currently only has grade 5 piano, which she taught herself, and has a merit not distinction. She could conceivably get a grade 6 performance before she puts in a UCAS application I guess... She's attending lots of theory sessions on how to harmonise a Bach Chorale, which seems to be the other bit - but suspect she'll still be fairly basic on it at the point of applying. It seems like a lot to learn.

So it's all a bit confusing. One thing is for sure, no-one seems to care how good you are at the bassoon. Sadly.

English seems far more standard.

The school is just starting its Oxbridge prep and has asked her to sign up. But I bet you any money it will clash with some orchestra or other. But as I said to her, if you don't try, you'll never know!

@achangeofnameisasgoodasarest - his thinking is that he wants to be a choral scholar at St John's, and it's easier to get in doing music than English or HSPS (which is what he'd really like to do, but is uber-competitive). I've also pointed out that during all his various phases and interests, music has been the thread that's run through, and that he's always loved. He's got a friend who's been offered a place there, if he gets the grades, so has been picking his brains about requirements. Apparently as well as top A levels, you have to have an interview, send in one or two performances, and do a composition!

Ah I see - good to be strategic! DD2 is a bit similar I guess. Brilliant he's got people he can ask too - we know Oxford musicians but not at Cambridge. Lots to think about!

If this ‘cunning’ plan doesn’t come off, it’s less clear what he’ll do. Other possible subjects of study include English, politics, philosophy or (new one) history of art. But as he’s studying either history nor art at A level, think this is ambitious!

Hi @herbaceous and @achangeofnameisasgoodasarest - I’m sure you can find out the stats somewhere online but I’ve got a friend who is Director of Music at a Cambridge college (one of the ones that is known for excellent music, with a mixed voice choir) - Music is much easier to get an offer for than other subjects - more like 1 in 2-3 vs English can be 1 in 10. Obviously it’s not easy by any means as they mostly have strong candidates applying.

It’s possible to switch course once you’re in, either at the beginning or after Part 1.

”Functional” keyboard skills are what is needed rather than actual performance skills - have a look at first year syllabus - they have to be able to realise figured bass, harmonise chorales, that kind of thing - so just need to be at a good enough standard to access that (compulsory) part of the course. For someone who is not a pianist and with multiple other grade 8s I don’t think anyone will care that grade 5 piano is a merit not a distinction @achangeofnameisasgoodasarest.

When DH did music at Cambridge back in the day they told him they wouldn’t count Further Maths and Maths as 2 separate A levels for his 3 A offer…which seemed a bit unfair!