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Extra-curricular activities

Find advice on the best extra curricular activities in secondary schools and primary schools here.

Autumn / Winter 2025 Music

981 replies

northerngoldilocks · 31/08/2025 12:39

Time for a new thread in time for the new school term!

Come and talk about music lessons, choosing instruments, exams, auditions, specialist schools, orchestras or whatever other music activities are going on. Everyone is welcome, from those with total beginners to those whose children are studying music at advanced levels. Ask for advice or share successes or struggles.

OP posts:
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timetablechaos · 01/12/2025 12:25

Wondered what everyone’s experience here is of ABRSM performance grades? My kids have only done practical so far, but the scales, aural and sight reading seem a lot harder than doing a fourth piece. My DD has her practical exam on Wednesday and might fancy a change for her next grade. Any experiences much appreciated. Also, what recording equipment did you use? I have used IPhone for NCO and NYO but would be happy to invest in something a bit better if it doesn’t break the bank. Thanks.

QueenMabby · 01/12/2025 12:34

DD’s done a couple. Not sure they’re easier! They have to do all four pieces one after another in a single take which is not an easy ask. I can’t help on recording though as she did that at school. She’s opted for practical grades for her grade 8s!

timetablechaos · 01/12/2025 12:47

Thank you. I know easier is subjective but performance grades must test a much narrower range of skills (playing/ performance only) without the scales, aural and sight reading which a lot of candidates do not enjoy and can be quite stressful. Not all candidates before anyone comes for me 😂 I realise it’s all got to be shot in one take but so is the practical exam, and that really is one shot rather than the several recordings that you can take for performance. My DD wants to do singing G8 and had a cold for her practical G7. She still did well but if she did performance grade 8 we could just change the time to when she was better eliminating a lot of stress. I know lots of takes has its own issues, but am struggling to see how the two are comparable really unless they mark the pieces harsher.

horseymum · 01/12/2025 13:50

Wait till you have to support your child recording four pieces in one take! Also presumably you need the accompanist as well so can't do unlimited takes. It's hard but in a different way. Also not sure what singers do for scales but instrumentalists have a lot of scales to remember which can go either way. Some think they are easy marks as in your control a lot more, others find them stressful to remember. I imagine the aural tests might be easier for some singers too. Do whichever suits best. If you are taking music further it's auditions and performances that will count anyway. But it's nice to round off that stage by doing grade 8.
I've had one do one with multiple takes and stress. Another time there was only an opportunity for one take with accompanist so just had to ' rise to the occasion '.

Ubertomusic · 01/12/2025 14:14

timetablechaos · 01/12/2025 12:47

Thank you. I know easier is subjective but performance grades must test a much narrower range of skills (playing/ performance only) without the scales, aural and sight reading which a lot of candidates do not enjoy and can be quite stressful. Not all candidates before anyone comes for me 😂 I realise it’s all got to be shot in one take but so is the practical exam, and that really is one shot rather than the several recordings that you can take for performance. My DD wants to do singing G8 and had a cold for her practical G7. She still did well but if she did performance grade 8 we could just change the time to when she was better eliminating a lot of stress. I know lots of takes has its own issues, but am struggling to see how the two are comparable really unless they mark the pieces harsher.

We did performance grade for g4 violin and both hated it as well as all subsequent audition recordings 🙈 DD cannot fully concentrate without an audience, makes different tiny mistakes at each take so it never feels "good" and the digital sound is harsh. It may be very subjective though.

We do all recordings on iphone with no additional equipment.

Her pieces have always been marked within the same range so it doesn't look like they are marked harsher in performance grades and yes, the two types are not fully comparable.

timetablechaos · 01/12/2025 15:40

Thanks- that’s interesting! As far as I can see the performance grade is 5 singing pieces or 4 instrumental pieces recorded back to back - no sight reading / aural / scales. I’m not doubting that recording it is not fun, but I am struggling to see how it’s as hard as the practical tbh. We are lucky as both her Dad and I can accompany as needed. We both took piano plus another instrument plus voice practical grades back in the day and remember the horror that was G8 piano scales. You could be asked any scale and it felt like an infinite number. We would both agree that that component has got easier in the modem practical with less scales asked (although still challenging!) but the performance grades seems easier again if the marking is not harsher. For singing practical it’s an unaccompanied folk song instead of scales, and yes, imo singing G8 is definitely easier than an instrumental G8.

Ubertomusic · 01/12/2025 16:13

I have no experience of g8 piano scales yet but for the piano and violin you have to do a military drill anyway, otherwise impossible to play pieces? Brass instruments have always felt laidback in comparison, DD played scales mostly to expand her range, not to tune.

I was more surprised to realise that some children playing g8 and diploma pieces cannot sight read at all and struggle in ensembles.

Londonmummy66 · 01/12/2025 16:51

DD2 took G8 performance for singing. The recording was done at school so I can't help with that. However she did have a good look at the assessment criteria in the performance grade spec to see what the examiner would be looking for in the "performance as a whole" element.

timetablechaos · 01/12/2025 17:11

Londonmummy66 · 01/12/2025 16:51

DD2 took G8 performance for singing. The recording was done at school so I can't help with that. However she did have a good look at the assessment criteria in the performance grade spec to see what the examiner would be looking for in the "performance as a whole" element.

I’ll have a look at that thank you!

timetablechaos · 01/12/2025 17:12

Ubertomusic · 01/12/2025 16:13

I have no experience of g8 piano scales yet but for the piano and violin you have to do a military drill anyway, otherwise impossible to play pieces? Brass instruments have always felt laidback in comparison, DD played scales mostly to expand her range, not to tune.

I was more surprised to realise that some children playing g8 and diploma pieces cannot sight read at all and struggle in ensembles.

Yes I agree with this. Violin and piano are both tough gigs.

QueenMabby · 01/12/2025 19:42

DD’s performance grades were on cello and piano (she’s done a mix of both on both). They do get marked on skills across the performance so inconsistencies across pieces can result in harsher marking - you can’t isolate a weaker piece in the same way as you can in the practical grade. DD’s school permitted two “takes” only and then just picked the best.
Having done both I’m not sure whether one is easier than the other - they aren’t assessing the same skills across both so it may depend where your DC’s strengths lie as to which one they prefer.

timetablechaos · 01/12/2025 19:56

QueenMabby · 01/12/2025 19:42

DD’s performance grades were on cello and piano (she’s done a mix of both on both). They do get marked on skills across the performance so inconsistencies across pieces can result in harsher marking - you can’t isolate a weaker piece in the same way as you can in the practical grade. DD’s school permitted two “takes” only and then just picked the best.
Having done both I’m not sure whether one is easier than the other - they aren’t assessing the same skills across both so it may depend where your DC’s strengths lie as to which one they prefer.

Thanks, that’s interesting to know. I think she’s keen to have a go as lots of her friends have done them and the music teachers appear to be moving that way too so it’ll be interesting to compare.

horseymum · 01/12/2025 19:56

There are always long running threads on this topic on the informal 'Abrsm Exams' FB page. The advantage of the performance exam is that it's perfectly possible to get to grade 8 without essentially being able to read music as you can learn pieces by rote or with all more names/ positions written in. Seems a bit soulless but obviously works for some ( parents). They do test very different skills but don't underestimate the slog of recording a grade 8 especially!
It probably relates to the article about perfection ( which I couldn't read as behind a paywall!). I'd rather hear passion and some wrong notes than perfection played robotically.

Ubertomusic · 01/12/2025 20:57

horseymum · 01/12/2025 19:56

There are always long running threads on this topic on the informal 'Abrsm Exams' FB page. The advantage of the performance exam is that it's perfectly possible to get to grade 8 without essentially being able to read music as you can learn pieces by rote or with all more names/ positions written in. Seems a bit soulless but obviously works for some ( parents). They do test very different skills but don't underestimate the slog of recording a grade 8 especially!
It probably relates to the article about perfection ( which I couldn't read as behind a paywall!). I'd rather hear passion and some wrong notes than perfection played robotically.

Oops sorry I didn't realise it may appear behind a paywall, I'm sure it's actually not as I don't have a paid subscription but can see it. It's a guest opinion.

I hope it's fine to share the text here but if not just let me know please and I'll ask MN to remove it.

___
Jonathan Biss

“As a performer, one has a mission, like Coltrane, to take your solo out to talk to God.”
That’s from Patti Smith, a great and uncategorizable artist, describing the saxophonist John Coltrane’s influence on her. In my head, I hear it in Ms. Smith’s South Jersey twang, the delivery blasé and slightly weary. To her, it is a self-evident statement.
Classical musicians are not trained to talk to God. We are trained not to make mistakes.
There are many reasons for this. Few of today’s classical music performers have written music; ideally we strive to be creative in our interpretive work, but primary creation is a thing we’ve only studied, not experienced. That can lead to paralysis. If you don’t understand how something is made, you fear you might deface it merely by engaging with it.
The problem is made worse by the vast recorded history that precedes us. Marketers like to use the word “definitive” to describe venerated recordings, turning them into part of the canon, as much as the pieces themselves are canonical. For young musicians, it is tempting to sidestep the complicated work of discovering and internalizing these works, blood and guts and all. It’s simpler to declare a specific performance sacrosanct and aim to reproduce it.
Playing an instrument well is phenomenally difficult. It takes a lifetime of arduous work and can become all-consuming, making it easy to forget that technical mastery is a means to an expressive end, not the goal. Mastery is a prerequisite if one is to communicate the essence of a piece of music. In and of itself, it is uninteresting.

This fetishization of perfection might not be surprising, but that doesn’t make it any less damaging. You cannot learn or grow while trying to appear as if you have everything figured out. You cannot talk to God by trying to avoid doing something wrong. Perfection is stagnation.

It is not only musicians who are stunted by the search for perfection. The need to be, or seem to be, perfect is harming many aspects of our lives and sectors of our society.
Take education. The debate over grade inflation usually centers on whether today’s students are working hard and performing well enough. More worrying to me is the notion that a G.P.A. of less than 4.0 represents a failure — that the purpose of an education is to accumulate credentials, rather than to learn. The realization that there is more to know about a particular subject should inspire excitement and curiosity; instead, for the performer or student who wants to seem invulnerable, it might inspire shame.
Social media might well be ground zero for this phenomenon. The obsessively curated and controlled Instagram profile has become so ubiquitous that it has birthed a new profession: the influencer. Like just about any societal development, this has some upside. Some voices social media have elevated are genuinely interesting and would have struggled to make themselves heard in an earlier era.
More often, they peddle a lifestyle without the messiness of life. We see idealized homes, idealized bodies, idealized dinners on idealized tableware. What we do not see is the struggle that forms the core of the human experience, that forces us to think in new ways and encourages us to forge connections with people who might see the world in ways we so far have not.

Predictably, this attitude has affected our politics as well. In a culture in which erring is unforgivable, inaction is incentivized. Our society faces serious, complex problems that cause real suffering and that pose serious threats. Finding solutions to those problems will involve imagination and courage, qualities that flourish only when we embrace uncertainty and acknowledge all that we do not, and perhaps cannot, know.
True perfection is an illusion, just as true safety is an illusion. Seeking perfection keeps us from exploring, even when we sense that we would be happier and more fulfilled if we did so. It makes us live smaller lives and stymies our creativity, both as individuals and as a society. It is the enemy of art.
I am a musician, so it is in the musical arena that this phenomenon disturbs me most. The point of a concert is for performer and audience to share something genuine and unrepeatable. A great performance is one in which the player has absorbed the music so deeply that his choices seem not like choices, but inevitabilities. This inevitability can and should change from performance to performance. The preparatory work should be freeing, not constricting, revealing and making accessible the music’s limitless possibilities.
The player should discover the work anew in each performance, and make the listener feel the full wonderment of that discovery. I have been to many such concerts. Each has included wrong notes, or other events that the performer might rue the next day; each has been exhilarating, consciousness-altering. I have been to many more concerts where I felt that the player’s primary goal was to avoid mishaps, to play the piece exactly the way it went in the practice room the day before. I remember little to nothing.
You can hear the virtues of imperfection in a of Alfred Cortot playing Chopin’s Preludes, Op. 28. Four measures into the first prelude, his fingers have already landed on several wrong keys. The performance is riveting not despite the wrong notes but because he was willing to risk them. Lose that element of risk, and you also lose the urgency and inexorability of Cortot’s performance, which gives us access to Chopin’s strange and turbulent world.

Recently, midway through a chamber music tour, I played a concert in which I felt absolutely connected to the music. This is not an everyday occurrence: Usually, a chirping cellphone or my overactive brain interferes, if only for a moment. That evening, though, something magical happened. I felt that I had found the essence of the pieces I was playing, that they and I were in total alignment, even if the performance was far from perfect. Afterward, I floated on air.
I awoke the next day with a knot in my stomach. A lifetime in classical music had conditioned me to clamp down, to aim to reproduce everything that had gone so well the night before. I suspected this was impossible. The concert was no longer a source of joy; it was a noose around my neck.
Then the colleague I had played with texted me: “Last night was special. We have to find the truth of tomorrow.”
The concert the following day was once again, by any measure, quite imperfect. We erred often but we sought the truth and, at times, we found it. Maybe we talked to God.

Londonmummy66 · 01/12/2025 22:39

Thank you @Ubertomusic - really great article. I've sent it to DD1 who is a very soulful player but has so many times been marked down to a cute looking kid playing a note perfect and over rehearsed performance of a piece that is really to deep for them. It was only getting to JD and then RCM that they got recognised for "trying to find God" (although years in a cathedral choir with an abusive MD have made them a life long atheist...)

northerngoldilocks · 01/12/2025 23:03

Interesting article. I think that risk talking often takes a while to chance. Up to grade 8 and the focus is so much on the notes!

Adding to the points raised on performance exams just to note that for some orchestra applications now re youth orchestras they are asking whether exams sat are performance or practical which I think is to just allow for consideration that a high grade might not equate to being able to sight read. Not sure what they do with DD in that situation though as she hasn’t done either! Thankfully the one that most commonly asks knows her playing reasonably well!

OP posts:
chickentikkasalad · 02/12/2025 13:16

Got an email saying DS’s has now got a place on NCO weekends, after being in the reserved list. He’ll be over the moon.
just that I can’t find the exact link to accept the offer in the email? The whole body of email seems to be a long link to the main webpage of NCO. I thought I’m supposed to click a link that’ll take me to a form to either accept or decline. Instead it takes me to the main page only which is same as if you just typed NCO.org
can anybody shed any lights? I’ve replied to the email asking but don’t know that email is manned or not.

chickentikkasalad · 02/12/2025 14:16

they’ve replied with a link this time so all is sorted!

Allthecoloursoftherainbow4 · 02/12/2025 14:27

QueenMabby · 01/12/2025 12:34

DD’s done a couple. Not sure they’re easier! They have to do all four pieces one after another in a single take which is not an easy ask. I can’t help on recording though as she did that at school. She’s opted for practical grades for her grade 8s!

In a face to face exam they have to play 3 pieces, scales and arpeggios and sight reading all in one take and there's no opportunity to have another go if you make a mistake?

Personally I don't think the two can be compared.

Allthecoloursoftherainbow4 · 02/12/2025 14:28

chickentikkasalad · 02/12/2025 13:16

Got an email saying DS’s has now got a place on NCO weekends, after being in the reserved list. He’ll be over the moon.
just that I can’t find the exact link to accept the offer in the email? The whole body of email seems to be a long link to the main webpage of NCO. I thought I’m supposed to click a link that’ll take me to a form to either accept or decline. Instead it takes me to the main page only which is same as if you just typed NCO.org
can anybody shed any lights? I’ve replied to the email asking but don’t know that email is manned or not.

They are usually pretty decent about replying to emails, which region weekend is your son on, congrats to him!

StuntNun · 02/12/2025 14:51

I have taken two performance exams in the past two years, for grade 5 and grade 6 piano. My DS has taken three practical exams in the past year, for grade 5 piano and grades 3 and 5 singing for musical theatre, and would not even consider a performance exam... even though he hates scales. For him, the performing side of the practical exam, elevates his performance.

It is hard to get a good recording of all four pieces/songs in a single take. It's stressful. People seem to think you can just record over and over again until you get it right but, in fact, the first recording is usually the best and then it deteriorates. I recommend setting an "exam date" when you will do the recordings and making sure everything is performance ready. You can record the performance before applying for the exam, that way, if things do go wrong and you can't get a decent recording, you can try again a week or two later. For higher grades, a microphone would be helpful as a phone microphone will compress the dynamics. A stand for the phone is essential. The pieces have to be recorded in one take but you can record the introduction separately then join the two recordings.

chickentikkasalad · 02/12/2025 14:53

@Allthecoloursoftherainbow4, they’ve just replied with the correct link. Thank you! He’ll be in the north region.

timetablechaos · 02/12/2025 15:43

Allthecoloursoftherainbow4 · 02/12/2025 14:27

In a face to face exam they have to play 3 pieces, scales and arpeggios and sight reading all in one take and there's no opportunity to have another go if you make a mistake?

Personally I don't think the two can be compared.

Honestly, this is what I think too. I don’t dispute the fact that both are objectively difficult but I just can’t see how one is not clearly more difficult than the other / they are not directly comparable. I also think the en masse move to performance grades backs this up. It’s certainly very tempting as pieces are not at all what I think most people find tricky about G8.

timetablechaos · 02/12/2025 15:48

StuntNun · 02/12/2025 14:51

I have taken two performance exams in the past two years, for grade 5 and grade 6 piano. My DS has taken three practical exams in the past year, for grade 5 piano and grades 3 and 5 singing for musical theatre, and would not even consider a performance exam... even though he hates scales. For him, the performing side of the practical exam, elevates his performance.

It is hard to get a good recording of all four pieces/songs in a single take. It's stressful. People seem to think you can just record over and over again until you get it right but, in fact, the first recording is usually the best and then it deteriorates. I recommend setting an "exam date" when you will do the recordings and making sure everything is performance ready. You can record the performance before applying for the exam, that way, if things do go wrong and you can't get a decent recording, you can try again a week or two later. For higher grades, a microphone would be helpful as a phone microphone will compress the dynamics. A stand for the phone is essential. The pieces have to be recorded in one take but you can record the introduction separately then join the two recordings.

Thank you for these tips. I think we’ll definitely give the singing a go and see what happens.

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