Spring /Summer 25 - Music thread

[northerngoldilocks]

Time for a new thread for spring!

Come and talk about music lessons, choosing instruments, exams, auditions, specialist schools, orchestras or whatever other music activities are going on. Everyone is welcome, from those with total beginners to those whose children are studying music at advanced levels. Ask for advice or share successes or struggles.

@VioletIndigoBlueGreen oh I’m so sorry to hear that- much worse when you’ve not got other good orchestral options out there. Really hope the wind orchestra is good. Fingers crossed that they’ve both smashed their GCSEs- which are, as I told dd2 yesterday,in the long run far more important.

@Ubertomusic you’d hope so but even the most freethinking teacher or department isn’t immune from the halo effect of a child doing well elsewhere. Certainly dd2’s membership of the national youth choir has done her no harm at all when it comes to the vocal department’s assessment of her- but maybe that is because it is unusual for someone who is specialist on something else.

@BBLY I can’t help with a Facebook group but I can offer sympathy as my DD is also a
child of non-musical parents, so I understand. It’s tough when you’re not able to help out with accompanying and questions - I am now a dab hand at finding YouTube accompaniments, making playlists and have even managed to fix a stuck key on a bass clarinet with a video. Ask here if you have any questions.

Well done on all the NYO tryouts - it takes courage to put yourself out there and then try again when you don’t get the outcome that you wanted.

Congratulations to your DS @photodad and all the other DC on their end of year exam results.

We have a week off here and then five weeks of music and drama to look forward to.

I’m going to record DS for NCO audition unaccompanied, but now wondering whether most of others have accompaniment, seeing namechange’s DD missed out because of it (at least partly). But that’s for NYO, has anybody DC successfully got in NCO unaccompanied? Didn’t want to put DS to disadvantage but it’s a bit too late to find a pianist now 😬. Thank you!

@UbertomusicWynton joined the benedetti as a guest instead of a teacher I think. He performed with the orchestra at the concert, not sure how much he was involved in teaching though. It was a nice touch to the concert, so don’t think your DD has missed out much.

@Ubertomusic As above - Wynton Marsalis was one of the guest performers at the Benedetti sessions along with Jess Gillam (and Nicky Benedetti obv and Yume Fujise). He was there for both days though so for my DDs orchestra he came into one of their sessions ran a section where he talked about how to connect your music with the audience / leaving space in the music etc, but it wasn't 'him running a group' and it was only for string players - he wasn't 'coaching brass players' at the sessions.

@chickentikkasalad I don't think that you can possibly know whether it helps or not to have an accompaniment and NCO (and NYO) claim it doesn't matter - my point was that if it genuinely doesn't then why not just get everyone to be unaccompanied. We will be recording DD's audition unaccompanied as i can't play the piano accompaniment for either of her pieces - sadly the only person who could play it is DD and she's 'busy' at that time!

@chickentikkasalad my DS got into NCO under 12s on clarinet unaccompanied but didn’t get into the main NCO orchestra with an accompanied submission. For the accompanied submission, he played grade 6 pieces as he’d just sat his exam and had nothing else ready to play. He was utterly sick of the pieces by this point and it showed in his playing. He didn’t get offered a place but did only drop a total of 3 marks across his exam pieces so we knew what he was capable of on a good day. Good luck with the recording.

@northerngoldilocksi agree it would simply things if everyone was on the same page. We’ll be recording unaccompanied anyway as we don’t really have a choice now. Hope your DD’s recording goes well. Certainly she can’t accompany herself 🤣.

@amr78thank you for sharing your DS’s experience. It’s hard to choose a piece that you’ve reasonably practiced well but not getting sick of it yet. DS’s going to record an “old” piece and a fairly new piece he learned after that. I can tell he’s also a bit fed up with the old piece but that’s the only slow piece we’ve got. It’s better he hides that then 🤣

My DD has been ill and off school for days but the only slot her accompanist could do the NCO recording was whilst she was unwell so the performance was far from her best :-(. It’s a wind instrument so the sound & pitch is v dependant on her energy levels.

So at least we have a recording but I’m going to try to get her to do another attempt unaccompanied next week (on holiday so not ideal and she’ll probably be over it by then!). But I agree with comments above that it sounds better and timing is more accurate with an accompanist generally. Kids with parents who can accompany are at such an advantage to be able to practise with them and do the recording at the best time.

I guess the tutors know what they’re looking for.

Question if unaccompanied: for 2-3 bar rests in the middle of pieces and starting on an off beat, do you think this timing needs to be exactly perfect? I’m assuming it does. My DD listens to the piano accompaniment and knows where to come in based on that rather than counting. It’s a shame they can’t use a recorded accompaniment.

@amr78 do you mind me asking how long ago your DS was in NCO? I have a clarinettist the right age to audition for main orchestra and we're just trying to decide whether to bother making and submitting a recording. I just have no idea what sort of standard you need to be to have a shot. She didn't get into U12 (at the time distinction G6) or U13 (distinction G7). She now has a pretty high distinction in G8 but is feeling a bit jaded. I appreciate it varies year to year and who knows who else is applying - I completely take on board what others say about it not being personal and you can't control who else is going for it. My feeling is she can't be so far off the standard that it isn't worth a shot but in her head there is this world of children who are so far beyond her she's sort of written herself off. But she would dearly dearly love it if she got in. And like someone further up the thread said we don't have any particularly decent orchestral options near us so she's kind of without any sort of orchestra at the moment. She is signed up to NYO inspire and has been accepted so hopefully she might get offered something from that.

Thank you @chickentikkasalad and @northerngoldilocks , that makes sense now! :)

FWIW we only did DD's first NCO auditions accompanied and she was waitlisted, then got a place off WL. That may be due to age and level though, she was 8 and played grade 4 pieces as her next grade pieces were not quite ready. The accompanist was excellent but there is only so much they can do to help. DD didn't have much experience of playing with accompaniment either.

Unaccompanied NCO auditions after that were a straight yes so I wouldn't stress about accompaniment too much, for the projects at least.

There isn't actually much to find in the way of videos or photos, they make it look lovely and casual for the most part. I decided to get something DD could wear again, mostly because we're heading off on holiday straight from the course and if single-wear items creep in we'll have far too much luggage. Hopefully they'll be a bit understanding if an eight-year-old doesn't have precisely the right shirt. I'm seriously considering sending jazz shoes as her black concert shoes, so we don't have to lug her school shoes to France!

Thank you @Ubertomusicfor putting my mind at ease about accompaniment. It’ll be whatever it’ll be. DS is going to play a piece he played about 3 months ago. I think he’s going to have to go through it a few times first as he’s forgotten a bit about it :) luckily the other piece is still quite fresh.

@MockCroc DS auditioned for U12 in 2021 but we were unable to take up the place as we had a holiday booked which clashed over the Easter - we decided not to cancel as we’d already had so many fun things cancelled due to Covid. He would have been around grade 5 standard at the time. He didn’t audition the following year but had just passed grade 6 with distinction at the time of the main orchestra audition. He was playing more difficult repertoire but didn’t have anything other than exam pieces audition ready which I think was his downfall. He bypassed grade 7 and went from 6 to 8 in 12 months, passing with a high distinction. We’re not eligible for NYO inspire (neurodivergence unfortunately isn’t listed in the eligibility criteria) and he was a member of our local youth orchestra but struggles with the social aspects of it so we’re parking it for year 11. It’s hard for woodwind and brass as there are so few orchestral places but it sounds like your DD is doing brilliantly for her age. Definitely worth submitting an audition but sounds like NYO Inspire would be a good option if she’s not offered a place in the main orchestra. What I’m not sure on is whether a bit like in NYO, the main orchestra NCO tends to favour those who’ve held seats in previous years if it’s their final year of eligibility.

Thank you @amr78 - that's really helpful. We may just give it a go and see what happens. As she has no real positive expectations of the process I suspect there is no harm in it. She's pretty pragmatic about it and has had the same thought that if the clarinets from previous years audition they are either probably still better than her or it may be "better the child you know" if she has crept up towards their standard. It is really hard for woodwind and brass because of the small numbers of places. She loves playing but music is only one of a number of hobbies she enjoys so she is not someone who spends hours practising and I think she recognises that she will lose out to children who do, but she is happy with that choice and it is the right approach for her. I'm sorry your DS doesn't qualify for Inspire but I hope he has a good music year even though he is taking a break from his orchestra.

@MockCroc that sounds like your DD has a great mindset and it’s good that she has a variety of interests. I think it can be quite hard when you’re competing against other children who have been in the NCO system for an orchestra or two already and know what the ‘in-house’ standard is amongst the ranks. Best of luck with whatever she decides.

I have really no idea if accompaniment actually makes a difference- suspect nyo just had lots of good candidates and dd2 wasn’t among the best- but the circs weren’t in her favour.

@MockCroc she sounds like she’s well at the standard- I know what you mean about people just being already ‘in’ and. feeling like they’ll get all the spots though.

Dd did get the main nco as her own offer for the nco residential courses though so it’s not impossible to get it just for one year. She had only done projects in the past.

it all just seems so tough on them when they’re young. And hard to decide on a recording when you’ve no real idea of what the circumstances are behind it- the playing field seems less level. Like the digital exams- some record once, and some 50 times!

Video auditions are a nightmare! Youngest did her first round NYO one just in her room on her phone. It was very speculative anyway, just to give her a taste of the process. She's happy with inspire things. NYOS decided last year to do an afternoon/ morning of music making as their second round auditions and everyone who applied after submitting their first round video got invited I think (maybe unless teacher reference suggested otherwise, don't know) They had sectionals and some time playing together. It meant if their recording wasn't tip top, they had a chance to show they could work well in a section, listen to instructions etc. Bit less intense than NYO second round which is a whole day. It's tricky because often they are among the best in their year/ school/ region so getting 'rejected ' isn't a common experience so they need to understand the possibility with any of these things . And to realise that hopefully there will often be other opportunities round the corner.

The NYO audition guidelines say: “When filming and recording, you should use only the internal microphone on your device. Please do not use any external microphones.” This implies that any professional recording equipment schools may have is not to be used, as these kind of set ups usually do have separate microphones. My daughter asked about this at NYO’s assessment day last year and they explained that professional equipment often has sound enhancing and tuning improving software attached, which is not allowed for the audition videos for obvious reasons. They also told her that their computers can detect the use of such software. So phone or tablet is absolutely fine for recording. From our experience, room or with or without piano accompaniment doesn’t really matter either.

Hey @MockCroc . Delurking to pick up on your queries about NCO main orchestra. DC2 is in this year on a woodwind instrument - she was initially reserve but upgraded a week later as someone declined their place. She tried unsuccessfully for the past two years, and hasn't done NCO projects due to other (musical!) commitments. She's not sat g8 yet, but did g7 about a year ago IIRC.

TBH most of the players have been there since U12s. I think she said that there were about 15 or so new kids out of 100+ in the orchestra. I don't know if they favour returners, or if it's simply that these are the top ranked people each year. Plenty of players are ridiculously ahead of my DC, but nonetheless she is keeping pace, and I actually think it's been really good for her to sit with kids her age who can inspire her. Like your DC she's never going to practice as much as she'd need to for the likes of NYO etc, but she's happy with how things are for now.

Fingers crossed your DC gets offered plenty with NYO Inspire. DC2 is just back from 10 days on the orchestra tour and had an absolute blast. And on video auditions, I wouldn't know where to begin to find an accompanist. She filmed on my phone in the sitting room.

@cg1 I guess the school knows whether whatever set up it has is allowed or not - DD2 said she was told it was and they'd just have to press the button on it if she was in the right room.

Anyway, not much danger of them detecting anything untoward on her ancient iphone - and I said I'm sure they can tell exactly what they're looking for anyway... but she will have been more stressed by circumstances changing and the mid-gcses thing - she literally had to go from the exam hall to record as far as I'm aware.

Anyhow, now she's got over it it has made her very, very determined to keep working for the other things she wants. I think she feels she is always playing catch up with music - she's very young in her year, didn't start playing til (relatively) late and is only now doing things like teaching herself the piano, which she notices everyone else already plays.

Still, as I tell her, she's now in the very best place to catch up so she's incredibly fortunate. And it's probably a good thing to realise there will always be people far better than you early on.

I met so many people at uni who had been 'stars' at school and absolutely fell apart at a uni where everyone had been a 'star' at school so they simply didn't stand out any more. She just gets that feeling a bit a bit early. It either makes you resilient or give up completely from what I've seen.

@achangeofnameisasgoodasarest I'm so glad she has a good attitude! I think it is also important to draw a distinction between the likes of NYO/NCO/LSSO etc etc and development as a musician. The former are only running for a very short period and need to select those they think they can throw in at the deep end - especially on wind where due to scarcity of places they are very very exposed. It probably also means there is a bit of bias (prob unconscious) to using those they already know can cope over an unknown newbie. As an ex clarinettist I know that woodwind is so very hard as there are so few opportunities compared to strings. .Musical development is a much longer slog and even at conservatoire they are looking more for people with potential, teachability and an ability to get stuck in and work fast which can be a bit of a different skill set in the early years when they tend to break you down to build you back up. Some of the early learners are used to getting by due to a ridiculous amount of practice and find conservatoire hard. Until sixth form DD always had to get by on an hours practice a day at school due to academics and extra curriculars so found it much easier to cope with the pace. Proud mummy moment - i hope its allowed as it is to make a point and not to boast - she is the one from her sixth form year group coming out not just with a first but also with some competitive prizes because she went in as someone who had learnt to practice efficiently and effectively, not the star pianists and violinists who practiced 3-4 hours a day if they could. She also had more fun and got far more out of the sixth form by cramming in what she could outside of the practice room,

Hi. Can I ask some questions about what I should expect from a piano teacher for beginner children?
DS9 and DD5 started piano at Easter. We don’t have particular ambitions for them at this stage and just want them to enjoy playing and learning the instrument.
The piano teacher they have started with is very friendly, and she was recommended in the local area by various students who are doing all sorts of exams and performances, but I don’t know really how good she is with complete beginners.

My DC each have a book of music that they are working their way through, but I’m not sure whether she is using it effectively. Things that bother me:

They seem to do new tunes each week- there is no repetition to improve how they do each one.
I hear the teacher correcting them if they play a wrong note but I never hear her correcting rhythm.
I never hear her correcting them as to how to position their hands on the keys or doing finger exercises.

I don’t play the piano myself, but did learn violin when I was a child, so I don’t know if her approach is a good one or not.

Both DC have made some progress - DS can read the notes on the music and play the right ones, but doesn’t have much concept of rhythm. He does also have clarinet lessons at school.

DD is beginning to be able to read the music and select the right notes.

I’d be grateful to hear from any piano teachers or parents with other beginners to get an idea of whether this is normal.

Thanks for opening this thread and hope someone around the Manchester area can help.

I have a 9 year old son who has just done his Grade 6 piano and Grade 3 violin practical exams (both strong distinctions). The school he’s currently in isn’t strong musically and sadly neither me or husband have any musical aptitude. Son desperately needs more support beyond the 30 minutes he’s currently getting per week with the wonderful external teacher he’s had since he was 6.

We’ve discounted Chets in Manchester as we’d prefer him to stay in a mainstream school, plus I’ve heard some negative feedback about the hot-housing environment there. Hoping someone with experience and / or connections with specifically the junior school running at RNCM can give some insight.

Also any frank feedback on whether he might be good enough to get a place! Some context, my son has got to a Grade 6 level on piano in a little over 3 years (violin grade 3 in two) supported by the half hour weekly lesson from the teacher plus about 3-4 practice sessions each week which last no more than 20 minutes. All the other time he spends on our Schimmel piano playing is coming from some drive within himself.

I’m just concerned if the typical 9 year old applying to RNCM is grade 8 distinction and practices for hours every day, then my son has little chance of getting in.

Not a teacher but speaking as a parent who’s watched the journey from total beginner to grade 6 over 3 years. I think your DS is making good progress in starting to sight read across the middle octave of the piano and presumably in learning the time values of the different notes (minims and quavers etc). This lays the foundation of actually started to hammer out a simple tune. I don’t know how long exactly your DS has been learning, but grasping concepts like rhythm and tone will come later I think.