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Extra-curricular activities

Find advice on the best extra curricular activities in secondary schools and primary schools here.

Autumn / Winter 24 - music thread

954 replies

northerngoldilocks · 02/09/2024 17:59

Feels like time for a new thread for the new school year!

Come and talk about music lessons, choosing instruments, exams, auditions, specialist schools, orchestras or whatever other music activities are going on. Everyone is welcome, from those with total beginners to those whose children are studying music at advanced levels. Ask for advice or share successes or struggles.

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stringseleven · 16/01/2025 17:22

I'm surprised to hear the kids think about social diversity at all when looking at these courses. They attract teenagers who are passionate about music. Does it really matter what schools they go to or what their ethnicity is? Most of these courses are out of our price range completely, but do offer financial support for which I'm personally very grateful.

minisnowballs · 16/01/2025 17:36

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minisnowballs · 16/01/2025 17:39

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horseymum · 16/01/2025 18:43

Mine definitely notice if there is a larger proportion of independent school pupils on courses (there always is). The proportion of state educated children in higher level ensembles will steadily decrease in line with the attacks on music teaching, both music as a subject and instrumental tuition. That is not an attack on anyone who attends an independent school, just that music is slipping out of the reach of so many kids now.

yodaforpresident · 16/01/2025 18:50

Yes, it surprises me too @stringseleven. My DD only cares that the people there enjoying singing/ music as much as she does and nothing else..and the food.

I am very puzzled @minisnowballs but I suppose I have never felt that need to only mix with people 'like me' - to be honest I'm not sure what that means (I am not English though). I don't see what the issue is even if there were lots of children from independent schools - they tend to be perfectly normal, mostly 😂. Did they do something to the friend of your DD?

Comefromaway · 16/01/2025 19:03

A friend of my son felt incredibly out of place on one course he went on. Everyone was pleasant, they use came from a different world. Eg when talking about a major health issue he had that might affect his playing one person couldn’t understand why he didn’t just go private. Also he’d been able to afford limited 1:1 lessons so felt under prepared.

my son was on the same course but he had attended private school for a few years before moving to state & is in general used to mixing in wider circles.

yodaforpresident · 16/01/2025 19:03

I understand that @horseymum, that's why I made the point about bursaries and outreach programmes. I would add that a decrease in music in independent schools is also happening - after COVID it was obvious that there were fewer children taking up instruments or even singing - they seemed to have lost resilience/ stamina/ concentration. There was also the issue that parents simply didn't have the time/ knowledge to support practise and online lessons, so a lot of children just dropped their instruments and didn't come back to them when the restrictions were over. Sadly, we can also blame the ever increasing attachment to social media and screens. It's very sad for music all round.

I am not sure what the issue is with independent school children on courses is though?

yodaforpresident · 16/01/2025 19:15

As I mentioned above, I am not English, and was brought up to believe that I am as important as anyone else (ardent Republican too) and was educated at a state grammar. It sounds like your son's friend met a particularly crass individual @Comefromaway, but I don't accept that that you can demonise children simply because of where they go to school - any school for that matter.

Comefromaway · 16/01/2025 19:16

I’d say there is no issue at all with the children in general. But when almost all the participants are from private school someone coming from a deprived area & state school can feel very out of place.

yodaforpresident · 16/01/2025 19:33

A sense of self worth starts at home and is something that needs to be nourished and encouraged by parents. It's not something that requires money but it does require time and leading by example. I find an upbeat attitude and being pleasant is largely what most children and adults are looking for when meeting new people.

Of course it is difficult, I moved to London in my early 20s, knowing no one, and had to find a flatshare with complete strangers that I had only spoken to by email before (2000, so I think even possibly pre-internet). The same with job interviews in city firms coming from a rural backwater. I really think we do our children a huge disservice if we don't encourage that confidence and resilience and essentially telling them that, it's okay to not give a damn what people think of you, you have as much right to be there as they do.

Comefromaway · 16/01/2025 19:42

The YP in this particular instance had very difficult home circumstances

Many of Ds’s friends had parents who either didn’t have a sense of self worth themselves or who in the battle to survive didn’t have the capacity to lead by example.

yodaforpresident · 16/01/2025 20:02

What would have solved the issue?

Should the young person not have attended? That seems extreme to remove yourself from an opportunity that sounds like it would have been of benefit.

Should the course providers have been more supportive? Did they even know that there were personal issues that this young person was struggling to deal with that they needed to support them with/ monitor? I have filled in enough of those course forms to know that there is a box to be filled in with information that the course provider needs to be aware of. If the young person was feeling overwhelmed/ unheard/ out of their depth was there no pastoral person to speak to? If the young person felt they couldn't speak was there no to speak on their behalf?

Did anyone feedback to the course provider on the issues that the young person experienced so that future attendees could be better supported? Something as simple as an anonymous 'worry box'?

yodaforpresident · 16/01/2025 20:21

I appreciate all of that but what are you suggesting the solution would be then?

Courses only for state educated children - NYO Inspire is almost this? Courses only for independent school children?

Do course providers need to encourage more 'mixing' on courses? They do ask for school details, so maybe they could mix roommates and breakout groups by different school types? I don't see why this is any different to mixing by sex/ ethnicity/ race.

I can't believe that segregation or self-exclusion is an acceptable answer in 2025.

Comefromaway · 16/01/2025 21:04

I’m simply trying to explain why someone from a different background may feel that something isn’t for them & why more needs to be done to increase diversity.

the situation was complicated, and pastoral were excellent but it’s why some young people are reluctant to attend a course where there is no one else like them.

yodaforpresident · 16/01/2025 21:24

I couldn't agree more - personally I would like to see a lot more ethnic and racial diversity as people from those communities are woefully under-represented.

My issue is that children from independent schools are being treated as a homogenous group that should be avoided. These are children that are being spoken about. Imagine if you substituted any other word for independent - how would that look?

Who would have thought that a post reminding people that a singing course was open for bookings would be so controversial.

Comefromaway · 16/01/2025 21:30

My own children went to independent schools (although one was a specialist MDS school it was still independent.

Comefromaway · 16/01/2025 21:33

Incidentally this YP was 6th form age & had worked every spare hour to pay for their own course (residential 2 weeks so expensive).

they travelled with us there and back which is why I know so much about it all.

yodaforpresident · 16/01/2025 21:36

They should be praised for it - it sounds very much like it was adults that let them down.

minisnowballs · 17/01/2025 09:28

@yodaforpresident - good grief, on the contrary no, everyone should mix more, not less!

I'm not suggesting that independently schooled students are a homogenous group who should be avoided at all or demonising them (and DD is now of course at independent school, where she seems to fit in just fine despite still completely, and possibly wilfully, failing to understand the rules of hockey) - merely that representation of people that seem like you is important if you want to feel that something is 'for you'. That is true in terms of ethnic diversity, gender (do girls often see 'people like them' playing the tuba?) and schooling.

I remember very well when I went to Oxford from a comprehensive (at a time when that was unusual) - I could not work out why everyone else knew each other from fixtures and balls (and a certain now quite discredited christian camp system only for public school children in the case of the Christian Union), and it was initially baffling. I was fine, of course - but the studies show that this sort of thing does put people off initially applying, and they might feel that they might fit in somewhere else better.

DD1 was put off oxbridge despite having the grades, and two oxbridge educated parents as 'you can't cook' and catered halls seemed such a weird thing to her - much less so if your school looked like hogwarts and you boarded (perhaps Christchurch wasn't the ideal choice for an outreach day on reflection!). As it happens, she wants to do a course that isn't offered there anyway, so this is fine - but it did make me think about how colleges etc present themselves.

The courses do a pretty good job from what I can see, and music is a great way to meet people who aren't initially like you, but I can see that someone from a background like @Comefromaway 's sons friend might have needed extra support.

Legoninjago1 · 17/01/2025 09:45

TreeAtMyWindow · 16/01/2025 13:31

Thanks, all. DD is really pleased she did well enough to get the reserve spot.

@minisnowballs They say that they use the entrance exam to ensure that all the choristers are able to keep up, but I don't know how that plays out in reality. She's doing fine academically, so it's really about familiarity with the types of questions so that she doesn't panic.

I should have taken @Compsearch's advice and started her on Spatone; she went off to school today totally exhausted and looking like a little vampire, despite eating her own weight in dark green leafy vegetables this week. I think I'm going to be telling her to put down the bassoon and rest this weekend, or she'll fall asleep over her Non-Verbal Reasoning paper.

Well done to your DD. Hopefully one will drop out and she'll be away! Is she still very keen?
As others said, I wouldn't worry too much about the academic testing - it's just to see that they can hold their own academically alongside the demands of choristership, to ensure the whole thing is in their interest etc.

MockCroc · 17/01/2025 10:21

I was surprised to see the controversy whip up on this thread about the demographic of a course (I know nothing about the course itself!). I'm normally mostly a lurker and here to ask questions about music opportunities and find this thread really useful, but the discussion has really struck a chord with me and I wanted to share my perspective. It's not meant to be taking sides or arguing with anyone. I don't like that side of social media and don't choose to get involved with it. But some people have been asking why does demographic matter to children and seem to find it odd that some children notice differences, so I thought I would share our experiences to see if it helps explain some of it.

I went to a fee paying school but of the sort which was once upon a time a direct grant grammar school (not fancy). I went to Oxford at a time when, particularly in my College, sooooo many people were public school educated and either seemed to know each other or be able to find a "one person removed" connection almost immediately. These experiences can make you feel "other" and that can be hard. In time you get used to it and those people become your friends and the differences recede into the background but it can make it harder to find your feet, however lovely your new contemporaries are. My husband is public school educated and went to a completely different university but almost immediately found all sorts of common connections when he met that group of my friends when we first got together, when my connection with them was simply meeting at university and getting along. Oddly I then went into a profession that is dominated by Oxbridge educated people and I suddenly found myself in the "in crowd" who kind find connections through that experience. I have a close colleague who came from a different excellent university and I know she found that hard when she started out. As humans we naturally always look for connections and common ground when we find ourselves in a new place. We feel better, more secure and more confident when we find them and we feel the opposite and outsides when we can't.

My kids are now at State schools. We are lucky enough to live in an area with good schools and it is a great experience for them, but the one area that is under resourced is music, particularly orchestral music - both in their schools and also in our local music service which is staffed by passionate people but really struggles for members.

We work hard to give our kids lots of opportunities outside of school as a result and they thrive with them, but it is the one time that I do notice some differences with how they experience those things, particularly at the beginning when they first started to be exposed to the courses, residentials etc.

As an example, my eldest has a great friend at an excellent fee paying school in London. They go on courses together sometimes because they love it and love each other. My eldest is perfectly happy but she does notice that her friend always knows quite a number of the other children there from her school music network so immediately on arrival she will have someone to chat to (and often several people) while my daughter will be with the other children starting out on the sidelines feeling shy (and where "there" is varies year on year but her friend always knows at least someone). When she goes to courses without her friend she is very much on the sidelines at the start. Her friend has been more adapted to the experiences they have because she does orchestral and chamber music at school and, as a result, her friend finds the courses less intimidating and more familiar territory. It doesn't stop my daughter having a great time (and with experience of these things she has built up more of her own network so she notices much less now), but getting started has taken a bit of guts from her to find her feet feeling more of an outsider.

I'm not suggesting she is alone in this because she has come to know other children with her background on their various residentials etc but the core of kids who arrive knowing each other or who find someone in common and therefore start out seeming to be the "in" crowd tend to be from fee paying schools. And I should say that our experience of the adults running these courses is that they are just marvellous and they work really hard on team building and closing the gaps and the kids have (mostly) been great too. The kids from the fee paying schools aren't being unkind. They don't see that they have these advantages and probably don't even notice that there are shy kids lingering around the edges who start out knowing no one and often have no idea about some of the terminology and etiquette of group music because of lack of experience. My daughter has always come away with new friends once she had found her feet.

Same goes for JDs. It has been more of a step for my younger daughter to adapt because her tiny state primary does almost no music, hardly any of the children in her class play anything and the ones that do are at beginner level. She got herself there from 20 minute lessons each week in term time from the local music service. So she doesn't have the experience of having class music lessons in a dedicated music department with dedicated music teachers with children in her class who play orchestral instruments who can contribute to the discussion around what they are learning. So she was absolutely baffled by her music theory and music appreciation classes at first and it really panicked her. I am sure these same points apply to some of the children from fee paying schools because there is always a spectrum but I think the example is sound. The staff at the JD she goes to are, again, marvellous and very aware of the need to close gaps. She has found her feet and her voice and is now doing well, but it was really hard for her to get stuck in at first because it was so very alien to her.

I think that is why these issues matter and should be discussed. It is not about demonising any of the children from one group of other, or suggesting that they are in any way unkind or not inclusive themselves. Or about saying that the children aren't confident enough or haven't been taught to be confident enough by their parents. And it certainly isn't about criticising the committed adults who often work in these areas precisely because these are gaps they are committed to closing.

But from my perspective this is why some children ask questions about the demographic of an experience, why they sometimes find it hard and why it can matter to them. They might not analyse or articulate it in this way, but to me it is simply that it is easier to find your feet in an environment that feels familiar, where you may know other children and find connections and are doing activities you are familiar with, than if you do not feel these things and, as a result, feel "other". And you are more likely to fall into the first group if you are at a fee paying school with lots of energetic musical parents and a music department and less so if you are at a 2000 child state school that can barely scrape together 15 kids to play in its "symphony" orchestra and has one music teacher running the show.

I don't know the solution to any of this but I do know that I am always so sincerely grateful that more and more of the specialist musical opportunities out there recognise these things and try so hard to find ways to be inclusive and break the ice.

yodaforpresident · 17/01/2025 10:47

@minisnowballs I don't think I have said anywhere that more diversity is not required - quite the opposite. My issue was with comments suggesting that courses with "supposedly" a high proportion of children being educated at independent schools were to be avoided, which I find appalling and offensive in equal measure. What is it that this group of children have done that means they should be avoided? If children from under-represented groups never apply, then how will these courses ever become more representative of society?

I can't say that I understand it, but having lived her for twenty years now, there very much seems to be an attitude of 'that's not for the likes of us' in England which I really can't fathom or accept. Coming from a country where education was considered the most important issue, in even the poorest households, and seen as a route to escaping that same poverty, every opportunity would be taken. It is this mindset that needs to be addressed as it is holding back so many children.

From what I have seen courses such as NYCGB, NYO and Rodolfus have been making huge efforts to make themselves more inclusive through offering generous bursaries and outreach programmes such as SING! The opportunities are there for the taking.

With respect to @Comefromaway 's young person, it sounds like they were failed by adults who should have been there to support and deal with any issues that they were having with other course attendees and feeling underprepared, which is terrible given the immense effort the young person had expended to attend the course. Mixing of children from different socio-economic backgrounds (and indeed other characteristics) has a lot to offer all parties - empathy, sharing alternative perspectives, understanding.

minisnowballs · 17/01/2025 10:53

I'm not saying they should be avoided at all, just that some children actively don't choose them if they don't feel right for them - I wish my friend's child had felt like going back.

@MockCroc I think you've articulated what I'm trying to say (clearly very badly) very well.

yodaforpresident · 17/01/2025 11:12

Most children and adults find it difficult in new situations but how will they ever experience those opportunities if they never even try? It's not just about music courses, it's about subject choice at GCSE/ A ‘Level, subject choice at university, applying for jobs, applying for promotions.

Thank you@MockCroc for sharing your experiences. This is a subject that I feel very strongly about it and it truly saddens me that people remove themselves from possibilities because they don't think it's for 'people like them'.

Comefromaway · 17/01/2025 11:33

I would like to reiterate that the other young people on the course were not being cruel. It's simply, as Mockcroc so elequently said, they were unaware of their advantages.