Parenting a (possibly) musical kid

[TreeAtMyWindow]

Long time lurker on the music threads here, coming out of the woodwork to ask for advice.

My daughter (7) loves music. She plays two instruments, because when I gave her a choice and she demanded both, I thought she’d drop one in time. She hasn’t. Reports from her music teachers are glowing. When she gets the chance to be in a talent show or try other instruments, she’s super-engaged. At a have-a-go-at-brass day in the autumn she picked up a cornet and immediately played a scale, then went off and did something on the tenor horn that impressed its keeper (playing high notes? Or low notes? I’m not sure).

We’ve been bumbling along for two years, with me, her totally non-musical mother, thinking that she’s no prodigy, but she’s doing well. Last weekend I visited a friend whose kid (8) has had five piano lessons, and is doing so well. He’s halfway through the second book (different series than my kid is using), reading music and playing confidently with two hands. It took way longer for DD to get to that point! So now I’m questioning whether she’s doing as well as I thought. Neither teacher has suggested she takes an exam, which is fine, because I don’t really have money for an exam, but looking it up, she’s playing some pieces which are on the grade one recorder syllabus. She isn’t for piano.

I realise it doesn’t matter if she’s good or not, as long as she’s enjoying it. But it’s relevant to decision making. Like, she seems to do worse on the big piano at her lessons than on her little keyboard at home, and if that’s holding her back, maybe I should get a proper piano, but if it’s just for fun, having something that fits in my little house is a big plus.

Another complicating factor is that she says very confidently that she’s going to be a chorister. At first I tried to manage expectations, then one of the kids she knew from music school became a chorister! So it just seems totally achievable to her, and I feel that if she’s not that musical, I should be getting out in front of the inevitable disappointment. 

And finally, my friend with the talented kid pointed out that an orchestral instrument would be much more useful for independent school scholarships than the piano and recorder. I looked up the scholarship information, and they say they should be at grade 5, but I have no idea whether she’s likely to reach that! 

I know I could ask her teachers, but tbh I think if I ask, ‘will my 7 year old get grade 5 by age 10?’ they’ll just say, ‘I don’t know, it depends how hard she works.’ And if I ask, ‘is my kid musical?’ they’ll say, ‘yes, I wrote “she is very musical” in her report, did you not read it?’ What I really need is an idea of what normal progress looks like, and how good you have to be for things like choristerships and scholarships. Are those really for only the super-talented? And how do you choose a direction? She wants to do everything, including join a brass band, singing, and take up several more instruments she truly doesn’t have time for. I clearly need to provide some guidance, but I don’t have a clue what I’m doing.

Sorry for the essay. Any advice appreciated.

[Octavia64]

Ime choristerships are for the super talented.

My DS auditioned for one at age 7. He played piano, cornet, violin and he sung. He wasn't good enough and the kids that did get in were super talented.

I think he was about grade 1 on violin, grade 1 on piano and grade 3 or 4 on cornet.
(This was a long time ago).

However, music is enjoyable for itself, and choristers and music scholars work hard for their money/boarding.

He is now a musician, with grade 8 cornet, drums, snare. He also plays ukulele, most orchestral percussion and took up saxophone recently.

Encourage your daughter.

[Gazelda]

I can't answer your question OP. A music teacher might be able to, but I suspect there isn't an 'average'

But I wonder whether you're getting ahead of yourself? Why not simply enable her to do what she wants if you can afford to and if it doesn't impact on her school work and playing. Let her find what she enjoys most and seek guidance from her teachers.

A piano might be too big for her little fingers at the moment. I'd let her continue with her keyboard and see if she wants to pursue Grades. At which point have a convo with her teachers.

Above all, I'd try to resist comparing her to others. At 7 i think she should be enjoying music for pleasure and possibly thinking about Grades if she's that way inclined.

Of course you want to give her all of the opportunities if she's a prodigy. But I think her teachers are the best people to speak to about that.

My DD is at Grade 7 at the moment and not extraordinarily gifted. She plays music to relax. That's enough for both her and me.

[Octavia64]

The general rule on grades is that you can do about a grade a year after grade 1. But you do need to practice.

So if she's not yet grade 1 she'd need to make more progress than most students in order to get to grade 5 by age 10. Also, and sorry to put you off but music scholarships very rarely get you much money off school fees and are largely for boasting purposes.

However singing in a choir of some description is almost certainly doable, there are a lot of easy to get into children's choirs out there.

Brass bands are also usually pretty welcoming (I have been around the banding world for about 20 years and both my kids played) and will sometimes lend you an instrument as well. Have a look for youth bands or training bands in your area.

[Siriusmuggle]

If she can play brass then it's really versatile- you can do orchestra or band. If she takes to something like the French horn then she'll have loads of opportunities. In terms of your other questions- mine started at 7, grade 4 in year 6 and got a music scholarship for secondary with free lessons and a 10% fee discount. He did grade 8 age 15 and went to specialist music school for 6th form. Now age 20 and second year conservatoire but hasn't done any exams since the grade 8. He loves what he does but is by no means a musical genius, he doesn't want to be a soloist but loves playing in groups.

[Vaduz]

I echo the advice about not comparing your DD to other children. Apart from anything else, there is a huge difference between the rate of progress that can be made starting piano at 5 versus starting at 8. Unlike many 5-year-olds, most 8-year-olds can read text fluently, have mastered basic numeracy skills that help understanding of note value and rhythm, and have more advanced fine motor skills - these are all skills that will make it easier to make progress when learning piano.

Your DD sounds like she has a real love for music, which is a wonderful thing to nurture. Piano is a great foundation for music so I would stick with that, but your DD might enjoy progressing from recorder to another wind instrument - clarinet or flute would be a good next step. It sounds like she took to cornet very quickly, but I understand that it's usually better for children to wait until their adult front teeth have come through properly before starting on brass.

I disagree with the comment above that choristerships are only for the super-talented. One of my DCs was a cathedral chorister; he enjoys music and loves to sing, but would be the first to say that he's no musical prodigy. In my experience, choirmasters look for potential when auditioning choristers - some degree of basic musicality and a trainable voice that has the right qualities. Range is a major criterion because choristers spend most of their time up in the rafters pitch-wise, and have to be comfortable singing high - sometimes this is the reason that otherwise talented singers don't succeed at chorister auditions.

[Fooshufflewickjbannanapants]

In brass a trombone is the best!! Brass band, jazz, orchestral list is endless

[Spinet]

Apart from those 2 year old violin prodigies, the most important thing is wanting to play. If you don't have to bother her to practise, if she's always making music of some kind, if she can pick out a tune with ease, she is very musical. Scholarships etc depend on the instrument - if you pick an unusual one she's more likely to get a scholarship! Schools always want singers, too. But I tell you one thing and that is that competition over who is quicker at learning things is the one thing guaranteed to hammer all enjoyment from a pastime like music. Let her enjoy it and encourage it.

[minisnowballs]

@TreeAtMyWindow , @Vaduz is right about progress being quicker later so don't judge her chances by that. She sounds wonderful.

If you're looking for an unusual instrument that works orchestrally perhaps try bassoon or oboe if she likes recorder. I would say that (have a small bassoonist) but it really is a lovely thing when played well, and has given my 14 year old many opportunities.

I would not have known at 7 that DD was going to be musical. She was never picked for a single music trip at school, never sung solo in the school choir because she wasn't confident and even at 10 didn't get the music place she applied for at state school (mainly because her parents played the game very badly) Fast forward to 13 and she was given a government-funded place at specialist music school, having already got into the national youth choir and children's orchestra. We still don't really know how any of this happened.

Encourage the enthusiasm and I suspect the rest will come. And try one of the 'be a chorister' days at the cathedrals - most of them offer them - which should give you a good idea of her potential - nothing to lose if she wants to do it. Good luck!

[ConstantastheNorthernStar]

I would disagree with the poster above in relation to a full size piano. It is really hard to progress on a keyboard because the feel of the keys is so different. My daughter began lessons at the start of year 1 and is now in year 2 being entered for grade 1. I think she is quite musical (although helped by the fact that I am too and can help her practice) but nothing exceptional. But she would make much slower progress without a full size electric piano.

[Slanketblanket]

A scholarship means she has to 'pay back' the scholarship in some way, join all the bands, orchestras etc. she may love that or it may become an empty chore sucking the enjoyment from music for her.

We have a few 'prodigy' musical children at dds school. Grade 7 before end of primary. They hate it. Their parents force them to do 2 hours of practice a night.

My advice is make sure your daughter progresses but let your daughter enjoy it and she will probably stick with it longer than anyone doing the grade system. Progression doesn't have to be abrsm syllabus, it can be learning new styles, jazz piano, classical, world music, composition etc.

[Jandob]

Mostly teachers say they are doing well, but they may not excel. It can be a hard slog. Piano is useful to learn to read music. If you want an instrument for a scholarship try the French horn. There can be lots of musical opportunities, she may well give it up when other interests take over.

[ConstantastheNorthernStar]

Also, I think it's easy to get hung up on the idea of natural talent. Progress at an instrument in the early stages is governed mostly by time spent practising, in my experience.

[StiffyByngsDogBartholomew]

in my experience music teachers want their pupils to take exams, not just for the sake of it but also for recognition for the pupil's achievement which is motivating in itself. I would be quite concerned that her teacher hasn't suggested even a prelim grade after nearly 2 years. So very kindly I would say just let her enjoy her music for the love of it but that maybe a music scholarship isn't on the cards.

dd is a music scholar at school at the invitation of the music director at the end of her first year at senior school. She didn't have the "required" level but teacher clearly saw potential. She started flute properly in year 7, she is currently in year 9 and doing grade 5. She has been having piano lessons for about a year and is on g3. She started doing viola last term and they want her to do grade 2 next term but I'm not sure about that. She picks it all up incredibly quickly but she has lots of other commitments (horsey) so it's hard for her to fit it all in. Her life at school is completely focussed on the music department where she is one of the leading lights; she sings as well and will be joining the chamber choir next year. The pathway for her is G8 flute by end of GCSEs and at least grade 6 on her second instrument then music a level and woodwind diploma. She wants to go to a conservatoire but I'm not sure she will be good enough. She absolutely loves it and has totally Found Her Place.

early or late start is no real indicator. I did a course with Florian Mitrea, a highly successful concert pianist who does work for AB and he said he didn't start playing the piano u til his late teens.

the main indicator of success is - are they prepared to put in the hard graft when it comes to practice !

[StiffyByngsDogBartholomew]

And a final point - most indies offer around 5% off fees and free music lessons for music scholars. That's what Dd has. At both the schools I was at (both small girls school and prestigious public) the music scholarships were still only offering a small percentage of the fees. You will be expected to find, at the very least, 90% of the fees plus all the other associated costs. DDs school costs including uniform, trips etc are around 20k a year.

[TreeAtMyWindow]

Wow, thank you all, this is really useful. To answer a few points:

• Local music scholarships say up to 50%. The reason my friend brought it up is that we're members of a small denomination that happens to have two private schools in the city, so bursary money may be more forthcoming than otherwise, as I don't think they get many applicants that share the religion of the schools. Nothing certain, though.
• She practises every day, no need to nag. Last time, though, for recorder she'd played all of her Fs and F sharps, so was set the same tunes for another week. I guess that's the sort of thing that doesn't happen if you have musical parents listening.
• There is a local brass band (@Octavia64), they do a yearly intake of beginners, and I've said she can join in September if she's still keen. She missed out on trying the trombone, @Fooshufflewickjbannanapants , but it is on the list.
• I don't normally spend my time comparing her to other kids! It was just so noticeable, he'd done in a couple of months what took her about a year. I'm happy for her to focus on enjoying music, rather than grades, in fact, her piano teacher spent about a term just working with her on her own compositions. I suppose grades are useful for knowing where you are.
• Luckily she seems very keen on the idea of the viola, double bass or French Horn (@Jandob, @Spinet, @Siriusmuggle ) , which all seem like rare instruments. Maybe I should mention the bassoon! I feel a bit stuck with the moving to another instrument idea, because she's on a bursary at the music school that entitles her to one instrument, and somehow we ended up getting tuition on two. If I suggest we change one, they might revaluate that, so I feel like she has to be very certain, and at the moment it feels like she's into the idea of a new instrument every week. I don't want to push her, but I also don't want to do her out of future opportunities that only come if you move on from the recorder.

Some of this information is super useful, especially things like choristers' vocal range (@Vaduz ) as that's something I can find out at home. I'm happy for her to do a chorister try out day, but that might make it worse if she really has no chance.

Looks like the jury is still out on whether she needs a new piano! It's frustrating, as she'd have free instrument hire if she'd chosen a different instrument. If anyone has any recommendations for electric pianos that check the boxes at the lower end of the price range, that would be really helpful.

[TreeAtMyWindow]

Also, @minisnowballs that's really reassuring. I mean, I never want her to leave home, and do not want her to conceive a desire to go to boarding school, but your story takes the pressure off a bit. It's hard not to worry she's missing out because of my ignorance, especially when I meet so many tiny violinists. But perhaps she'll find her own way if she needs to.

[OhCrumbsWhereNow]

In my experience progress is rarely easy to predict and if you're not playing Chopin at 5, it doesn't mean you are not musical.

I have a DD (15) who is on track for a career in music.

She started guitar at 6 - teacher was extremely enthusiastic about her. She moaned that her fingers hurt, didn't want to practice and swapped after a year to the piano.

Total disaster and after 6 months I called a stop to it. Went back at 10 with a different and she made really fast progress before deciding that she wanted to focus elsewhere. Now that she no longer has lessons, she plays every day... sigh.

She went back to the guitar last summer and is now performing live on G5-6 pieces after 6 months. Crazy fast progress, but she probably does a couple of hours a night of practice.

Her first study is singing - she was G8 level by 12 and has always done a couple of hours a day practice since she was very tiny.

There is very definitely a strong link between own-choice focused practice and progress. I've occasionally nagged about what is being practiced but I've never asked for practice. When she is uninterested she doesn't and it becomes very obvious.

I would just let your DD have fun with it all and see where it goes. As they get older it does start to become clearer.

In the past I did ask teachers for a clear picture of where she sat musically - mainly because I didn't want huge disappointment if she actually had no potential to get where she wants to get. It does depend somewhat on what your teacher has to compare with as to the answer you get!

[Octavia64]

With piano, kids do learn much quicker at 7 than they do earlier.

My kids started piano when they started school - so age 4. I started with them.

They made sod all progress for at least a year because they were learning the notes and co-ordinating their hands.

One gave up for a year until til she was older and could manage to do two hands independently,

So a child of 7 who can already read words and is used to the concept of writing representing sounds will always progress quicker than a younger child who is still learning that.

[minisnowballs]

@TreeAtMyWindow - DD2 is at school with many tiny violinists (and ex tiny violinists who are now great massive 'going through puberty' violinists). I have huge imposter syndrome for her, but her HoD is very clear she is exactly what they want.

I wish she didn't have to be at boarding school - but they find their own way. Meanwhile I identify very strongly with Hermione Granger's parents from Harry Potter, and am just grateful that music school seems to have more exeats than Hogwarts. On the scholarship thing though, if it really is music they want, the specialist schools are far more generous than other independent schools - we could never afford ordinary independent education.

[StiffyByngsDogBartholomew]

@TreeAtMyWindow anything made by Yamaha or Roland will be a solid, quality option. How much are you looking at ? A digital piano with weighted keys is the best keyboard option after an acoustic. I wouldn't buy from somewhere like Facebook/ebay but if you need to keep to a budget then go with secondhand from a reputable music shop.
I'm an acoustic girl through and through although I do have an ancient 1980s portable keyboard that I take to work to practice tricky passages and exercises on which is about to be upgraded to a Yamaha np32. But keyboards/digis do have the advantage that headphones can be plugged in if you are thoroughly sick of listening to A minor harmonic scale being played wrong, over and over again 😂

[ConstantastheNorthernStar]

https://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-and-Pianos/Yamaha-P145-Digital-Piano-X-Frame-Package-Black/5REY
@TreeAtMyWindow If it's any use, this is the one we have (although I was very lucky to be given one by my aunt who no longer needed it).

[SeriouslyAgain]

They're impossible questions to answer but a few random thoughts! Just because another child might seem more talented doesn't mean your DD isn't talented. Different people find different instruments easier/more difficult. Things like brass need a lot of lip strength (as do bassoons!) whereas a piano needs coordination and hand span (obviously I'm hugely simplifying!). Some are easier to learn the basics quickly (eg recorder) and some, the basics are really hard but once you've got them, you can make a real leap (violin).
Scholarships in a 'normal' school tend not to be very large, say 10 or 20% of fees. Having two (or more) instruments definitely helps.
Playing in ensembles can really help. As many as possible while she's young and has the time (she may seem busy now but it's nothing compared to gcses etc!). That's not just because it's great for their playing, but also because if you're feeling a bit helpless, at performances you get to see a spread of talent.

[ZebraPensAreLife]

She sounds as though she enjoys music, which is a great thing.

I wonder if neither the piano nor the recorder are her instrument, from what you’ve said? She sounds like she would take to brass very quickly - I would probably not start off on French horn as it’s a) more difficult and b) not as transferable between instruments as something like a trumpet / cornet. We have a lot of mini trombone and trumpet players in our band, and they sound reasonable surprisingly quickly!

[landofgiants]

I disagree that choristers need to be super-talented when they start and I think it very much depends on the choir. They are often looking for future potential rather than current musical ability. Things like a clear voice, good vocabulary, combined with an interest in music/singing may well be enough. I would encourage letting her try for a place because it has been such a beneficial experience for my DS. DS has acquired confidence, new friends and a wealth of musical knowledge. He’s a shy kid but sings beautifully (including solos) in a way that I wouldn’t have believed possible when he was 7.

The important thing is that she is keen and enjoying making music. I think 7 is still quite young. My kid plays the harp but is absolutely rubbish at practising. He’s never done any exams but is probably playing around grade 4/5 standard (he’s at secondary school). He’s super-engaged with the music department at school, wants to do Music at GCSE/A-level, but has no intention of pursuing a career in music.

[NimbleFox]

I've got an almost 7 year old who plays two instruments. Piano started in July in reception, took her initial grade in October and has just started some grade 2 pieces after doing grade 1 level repertoire for the last 6 months. She started trombone in September and is cursed with two brass playing parents (who she refuses to take advice on so we finally caved and got private rather than group lessons in January). She's still working on lip control and strength but could play grade 1 level pieces if she could only be in control of her pitching. She loves her lessons, practises with little persuasion needed and has asked for a full size trombone for her birthday. She's moved reasonably fast as she's a quick learner, takes instruction from an adult well, and has a good memory. However I don't think she's going to decide music is her destiny and my sense is she likes being able to play things rather than liking creating music. Grades align with the first of those but not necessarily the second. I hope she enjoys music throughout her life and gets as much from playing in ensembles as I did. The current aim is get her as good as possible while she still listens to me so she's self motivated to practise when she's a bit older and a bit less interested in my opinion! I try to help her make the most of her practice (prioritise those boring basics of scales and long notes, and try to focus on the bits she can't play not the bits she can) which is something anyone can help with. I find it easier as I sit in the piano lessons so I make notes of what the teacher says to practice - it was very clear I'd need to sit in the car for trombone lessons so it's harder to backup the specific messages.