Dance - not good at acro

[DanceMumTaxi]

Dd does absolutely loads of dance. She’s only 7 but competes with a group and in solo’s. This week she’ll be at the studio 6 days (it’s a lot, but she loves it, does well at school etc so it’s not a problem for us). She’s pretty good and has won quite a few solo’s with her song and dance, but her acro isn’t good and I feel it’ll really hold her back and she gets upset about it. She can do forward rolls, head to feet, cartwheels/one handed cartwheels, drop back into bridge from standing. But can’t do an ariel, kick over, front/back walkover etc. She works hard but is scared. Her front splits on both legs are good, but I feel like her acro is really going to hold her back. So many of the routines seem to be full of acro tricks. Has anyone whose dd/ds dances got any advice please? Did they get better as they got older? How did you help? Or are some just naturally very talented at acro. I’d really like to help her. Thanks dance mums/dads.

@allto the technique for acrodance and gymnastics is different; the acro dancers you have come across may just have been poorly taught or they maybe using correct form for acro dance which is not the same as gymnastics. When I watch gymnasts perform their dance moves in their floor sequences, I don’t consider their dance technique to be wrong, I appreciate that the technical requirement for gymnastics dance is different than it is for dance. Take
for example, how a gymnast performs a turn/pirouette compared to a ballet or jazz dancer- it’s totally different, they are all correct for their own genre and completely incorrect for the other two. Same goes for gymnastics and acrodance technique, they are completely different from each other and neither are wrong when used correctly in their own genre. It’s very narrow minded to assume that anything that isn’t a correct gymnastic form to be ‘wrong’ and not to consider other types of acrobatics- what about professional acro performers such as those in Cirque du Soleil or Shen Yun who also perform without mats- yes these company performers are professionals but they will have started their training both on and off mats as children. Gymnastics is a sport, acrodance is a performance art and there is a huge difference between the two.

I am also aware that RAD / ISTD do not have an acro syllabus- I just highlighted those in addition to my acro qualifications to show that I have extensive teaching experience, and I do have 25 years in this field of work, and 7 years teaching acro following my acro teacher training course. The IDTA have both gymnastic dance exams shown with mats and acrodance exams with work shown without mats to reflect how this style should be performed, in addition to all of the dance genres that they offer.
I have seen the dance performance and competitive dance worlds change considerably in the last 30 years, some of the newer west end musicals have some elements of acro in the choreography (such as Prince of Egypt), and although it isn’t the main focal point of the show (unlike some of those mentioned above) it is incorporated into the choreography. What are the performers supposed to do, say hang on a minute to a couple of thousand audience members whilst they roll mats out across the stage? Perform an entire west end musical on mats?
The real issue here is not about dance schools teaching acro, it’s about the ones who are not teaching it safely and with good knowledge of the proper acrobatic dance technique. More regulation of teachers and qualifications would be a better way forward than a blanket ban on acro in dance schools, but comparing acro and gymnastics is like comparing apples and bananas- there are some similarities and a lot of differences.

Won't find them in auditions for full-time vocational dance training though.

@taxi4ballet exactly, both of my daughters have gone to full time dance colleges (one is in her first year, one is a grad). Neither were good at acro, although to be fair both colleges had acro classes as optional extras for those that wanted to do it (usually as a 10 week modular course or something similar). My eldest DD opted for a stage combat workshop instead which she found to be more beneficial, my youngest did an additional MT ensemble class for her option. I think it’s good that colleges recognise that there is a (limited) requirement for acro and are including it in their optional classes, but I would hate to see it become a compulsory part of vocational theatre dance training.

Not meaning to be rude@dancinfeet but you've waffled on a tangent about irrelevancies. Your last post indicated you didn't use safety mats because they'd interfere with the dance part of the choreography.

The point was about the safety of children doing somersaults, forward or back aerial walkovers, aerial cartwheels (and other tumbling) without mats, in these dance competitions, on hard floors and stages.

Dangerous in my opinion, and many of us parents think the same.

Obviously I'm not discussing the pure dance elements but the gymnastics in these acro routines - the somersaults, the aerials, and other multi-person balances, in group acro dances or duets and trios, the very same as the sports acro at gym clubs. All done without mats in dance comps, most dance comps.

@allto the fact that you think that certain movements (skills) ‘belong’ only to gymnastics shows your complete lack of understanding of acrobatic dance and that you dismiss anything that may contravene that as waffle. What you are really trying to say is that dancers have no right to do any kind of acrobatic movement within their performance and that these skills ‘belong’ to gymnastics- which shows your complete lack of knowledge about anything other than gymnastics.
You haven’t addressed my comments about ensuring that acro is taught safely in dance schools, just kept with the attitude that it shouldn’t be permitted in dance schools full stop. May I remind you that the OP asked for advice about her daughter about acrodance, she did not at any point even mention gymnastics?
Also, just to reiterate (I did mention in an earlier post) that of course we do use mats and other equipment in training- (at least we do in my studio), and that the skills are trained to a high standard before progressing them to the floor (in my school, I can’t speak for other dance schools).

Let me just make this clear- the ‘training’ part of my acro classes is where students work on strength, conditioning and new skills / skills that they are progressing, and this work is all done on mats. Occasionally I will ask a student to perform a skill off the mat to check that it will be ready to incorporate into a dance but the bulk of this class is done on mats. No choreography in this class. When we are in our dance performance lesson and we want to include an acrobatic move into a piece of choreography I will check who can perform it competently before including it and only if it works well with the piece. I never ask a student to perform an untried, or hesitant acrobatic skill on the floor. We also have crash mats, a small air track and air rollers of varying sizes as well as our panel mats and other smaller pieces of equipment. All used only under my supervision. Please don’t think I have children attempting new movements for their first time on a hard wooden floor, this is not the case.

Yet you're giving me more of the same waffle. I've never mentioned training without mats so why answer that for me.

I mentioned children competing using gymnastics (somersaults etc) on hard floors without safety mats. How many times do I need to repeat that.

You can't teach these things more safely than a gym coach thus negating the need for safety mats in competition.

@allto are you actually a coach of any kind? your lack of knowledge astounds me. Or just a parent who thinks she knows better than someone with actual
qualifications in what they teach?

Your ignorance and lack of concern for safety is what is astonishing.

The upshot is, and as you said, that you don't use safety mats for children doing somersaults, aerials, and other gymnastics components, as they interfere with the flow of the dance part.

@allto correction we incorp

Correction to what, specifically?

What worries me more about tye OP’s setup is that it is a ‘non exam’ school, meaning that even the minimal ‘safety net’ of accredited and trained teachers delivering a carefully- graded and progressive syllabus is potentially absent.

As a parent, I wouldn’t send my child to any acro-containing classes unless I was absolutely certain about the teachers’ qualifications.

Had dd’s dance school been in any way acro / gymnastics dance inclined (rather than ballet/MT/tap) I think I’d probably have preferred to send her to gymnastics for the ‘non dance’ move basic training, tbh, in addition to dance training.

Yep I'd rather know they were proper gymnastics teachers teaching moves properly.

Failing that a dance school that's accredited with grades etc. And check they have some form of acro qualification not a dance teacher who just wants to put some fancy moves in.

As a gym mum I was surprised how early they encouraged aceo moves at a friend's dance class when in gym they were working in building stability/strength first.

In my experience think it's us gym parents who have been the most surprised at children doing the gymnastics moves without mats in competitions!

I said upthread my dd has a background in gymnastics. She was doing hours of strength training and conditioning, around 11 a week, over a few days, even at a young age.

@allto I incorporate the acro moves seamlessly into the choreography, performed safely with good technique then there is no reason for mats. You have not answered my question about if you are a gym / dance coach or not, or just someone who thinks she knows better with judgement based on what you think you know?
I personally think horse riding is downright dangerous, but it’s certainly not my job to dictate to someone what should and shouldn’t be allowed for their children

crosspost @allto but you are a parent not a coach so it’s not your place to decide, and my competitive dancers also put similar amounts of training in, a significant amount of which is also strength and conditioning work, dance isn’t just skipping about!

I incorporate the acro moves seamlessly into the choreography, performed safely with good technique then there is no reason for mats

You're back again trying to justify not using safety mats in competition. There is none.

Because it's dangerous for children to perform acro moves (the tumbling, the somersaults and the aerials) in competitions on hard floors without safety mats.

Some dance schools use them in competition you know.

And some very successful dance schools compete with solos, small and large group dances that don’t include acro at all, ever, or only in very small amounts for one or two older dancers who are dual gym / dance trained and have the strength and facility.

(And some of the very finest dance schools - especially ballet schools - don’t compete at all)

@cantkeepawayforever I know that not all schools compete. However, even in the ballet world there are competitions for those that want to do them (Youth Grand Prix, Adeline Genee and so on). Of course it’s perfectly possible to compete dances without acro- tap, musical theatre, national and various other styles of dance do not contain acrobatic moves as they are irrelevant to the dance style, and acro should also be heavily restricted in jazz and lyrical styles too. Acro is it’s own genre, and although a few well executed skills can be incorporated into some styles it should not dominate a non-acro routine. I stand by my point that taught correctly, it is an acceptable and valid genre, the issue is with those who do not follow safe teaching practice when teaching acro to their students.

The Adeline Genée ballet competition hasn't been known by that name for a while. It's now The Fonteyn.

Round our way, I'd say that not all that many dance schools are on the 'competition circuit' for want of a better word. Those that do, enter their students into the All England or the Janet Cram awards. The majority of those concentrating on ballet, tap, modern, jazz and contemporary don't bother with competitions, they are more interested in teaching their syllabus, and most do an annual or bi-annual show instead. RAD schools in particular tend not to do competitions. Entering things like the Genee (which is what it was called when dd did it) is extremely rare for dancers not already in full-time training.

I agree, taxi - hence my point earlier that there are local ‘norms’ as to whether schools in a particular area compete, and in what styles.

In the area where DD danced, the only schools that did lots of ‘comps’ were street dance ones.

My DD is a senior competition dancer.

At the good competitions with qualified experienced adjudicators, you are penalised for using unnecessary tricks in non Acro routines. Doesn’t stop some people putting them in anyway.

Also, unless tricks are done correctly with correct alignment (incl straight knees!) they are unlikely to contribute to the marking.
In fact, is more likely to cause marks to be deducted. Better to leave tricks out all together if they are not perfect.

The following is copied from rules of an upcoming competition
Acrobatic moves in the Lyrical, Jazz Show Dance and Contemporary classes should be kept to a minimum and only used if they enhance the choreography. Excessive use of acrobatic moves in these classes may be penalised.

Off topic, but have any of you seen dancers at competition do their ariels outside on concrete paving??? It is a scary sight!