Dance - not good at acro

[DanceMumTaxi]

Dd does absolutely loads of dance. She’s only 7 but competes with a group and in solo’s. This week she’ll be at the studio 6 days (it’s a lot, but she loves it, does well at school etc so it’s not a problem for us). She’s pretty good and has won quite a few solo’s with her song and dance, but her acro isn’t good and I feel it’ll really hold her back and she gets upset about it. She can do forward rolls, head to feet, cartwheels/one handed cartwheels, drop back into bridge from standing. But can’t do an ariel, kick over, front/back walkover etc. She works hard but is scared. Her front splits on both legs are good, but I feel like her acro is really going to hold her back. So many of the routines seem to be full of acro tricks. Has anyone whose dd/ds dances got any advice please? Did they get better as they got older? How did you help? Or are some just naturally very talented at acro. I’d really like to help her. Thanks dance mums/dads.

Yes, but then what? What qualifications do they end up with - Btec, a level 5 or 6 Diploma, or a BA degree? And then what? Once they graduate, what professional contracts do they get?

They do Degrees at 18. They work in a variety of places. Some in the West end, some with touring companies or regional theatres, some TV work, some on cruise ships, some teaching or choreographing, some move into fitness. That wasn’t the point of this thread though. I was originally asking about how I could help dd get a bit better at acro because she gets a bit upset that her friends can do things she can’t. I’ve never said she’s going to be a huge West End star.

I know @DanceMumTaxi I am a bit baffled , it was obvious from your post this is about your DD dancing for enjoyment!

I don't think it is that obvious, personally.

If the dd was dancing for enjoyment, a different school with less pressure would be the obvious choice. A school that creates the type of environment where a 7 year old child gets upset about not being able to do an aerial is not really focused on enjoyment in my experience. Surely the only reason you would keep your child in that kind of intense, pressured environment is because you envisage them making some kind of career out of it?

I know the OP is saying that the pressure is self imposed and not from the school, but I have seen these situations time and again, and I don't believe that a 7yo would feel that pressure unless the school had created that kind of culture. And the child is attending 6 days a week, so she will be heavily influenced by that environment.

Clearly, the OP has no intention of moving her so she is willing to accept the risks that are associated with that kind of dance school, but let's not pretend that enjoyment is the only thing that matters...I have seen schools like this kill the enjoyment for so many kids over the years!

Yes Mrs Bennets says better all the things I was trying to say earlier. It clearly isn't for enjoyment when a 7 year old feels "behind" enough and OP says it's because they want to win. When asked the reasoning was the 7 year old wants to win at all these competitions they go to. All the competitions and 6 days a week creates a competitive environment where the winning "counts" rather than the dance.
A better title would be "How can I improve my 7yr odds acro so that they are the best..."

@DanceMumTaxi hyper mobile is not necessarily being flexible to do tricks. The biggest indication of hyper mobility is natural turnout, if a dancer has good natural turnout they are almost certainly hyper mobile.
I didn't realise my daughter was hyper mobile until she suffered an unusual hip injury at 18 and ended up with a referral to a specialist dance sports medicine specialist who asked to see her natural turnout, there were other bits to his examination, but that was his first screening test.

To echo lonecat, my dauhgter is hypermobile but really struggled with her splits, she didn't get them until the end of year 7. The physio assessed her though and she has full 180 degree turnout.

Lonecat - was that one of the NIDMS clinics? My dd went to the Birmingham one and they are so good there.

Local dance culture - as created by local dance schools and competitions- is a really interesting thing, and very variable a tods the country.

DD - a very good dancer, though not one who has gone on to dance training after 18, having chosen an academic route - grew up and competed within a local dance culture driven by dance schools where solid ballet technique and core strength were the main focus. Exams and exam classes, up to Advanced 2 in all genres, were the bedrock of each week’s dancing. Competitors were the main Festivals, held 3-4 times per year, plus the main exam board national competitions (Janet Cram etc) in each genre for a very few. Nobody competed in group dances without 3 ballet lessons a week, seen as the best way to develop the strength the avoid injury.

Yes, some individuals did solos with more ‘acro’ content, if they had the specific facility, but none of these were more successful in local or national competition than those who did ‘standard’ Modern Theatre in Modern classes.

This was the same for all local schools, and what we saw in local Festivals and in access to further training was that those with the best technique, founded on secure classical training, were the most successful.

Yes, but then what? What qualifications do they end up with - Btec, a level 5 or 6 Diploma, or a BA degree? And then what? Once they graduate, what professional contracts do they get?

It's little wonder funding has been cut for areas like this, in my opinion.

I personally know of so many (via school promotions also) mediocre dancers who succeed with places at the various colleges and dance degrees.

There really aren't enough professional dance jobs out there to support the number of graduates from all these colleges. So many young people train and get qualified in MT or professional dance, then turn up to open auditions, find that there's literally hundreds of other dancers there too, and don't make the first cut. Do that a number of times and it would be really demoralising. There's also the problem of trying to stay match-fit, so to speak, if you are no longer training full-time.

The overwhelming majority never end up with any kind of long-term professional contract, and so either have to find other work outside the performing arts, or end up getting some dance teaching qualifications and going into teaching kids at local dance schools, often the one where they themselves trained. Which is fine if that was their aim all along, but otherwise not really what they wanted.

It's tough out there.

My daughter felt that as she graduated during covid where half her classes where online and her graduate showcase etc were cancelled that despite 8 years of training from age 11 she didn't even start out "match fit" so to speak and it has been difficult. So she has had a couple of small scale contracts but is mostly earning a living through other means and looking into going into education/outreach.

Absolutely agree @taxi4ballet

The competition is really tough.

Added to that we know of people whose talented children (at around 18) have secured professional contracts with companies (specifically ballet) and the pay hasn't been enough to make ends meet and the parents have needed to supplement their wages. One case we know of they dropped out and found a university place doing a non dance degree.

Has anyone’s DD managed to progress despite not being naturally able? My DD is desperately trying to get her walkover and Ariel, she even has private lessons 🙈 but she just can’t do it!

Strength, stretching and other training, under supervision, will help. There's no quick fix, or shouldn't be for safety.

Ariel cartwheel I'm guessing, rather than aerial walkover, if she can't yet do a standard walkover. Probably better to be able to do both walkovers, forward and back, prior to that handstand or back end, etc, into position.

I’m going to demystify some of the ? about why acro is performed without mats.
Acro should be performed without mats this is the whole point- to seamlessly incorporate acrobatic dance moves into the choreography as part of the performance. Acrodance is not the same as Acro (gymnastics) and I think that dance teachers should be doing a better job to explain this to their customers.
Learning acro correctly and safely should take time- new skills should firstly be learnt on a good quality mat, and if necessary with additional equipment (crash mat, octagon roller, wedge mat depending on the skill) or support such as having the teacher spot them (provide light physical support) the first few times. All acro skills have basic requirements- such as if you can’t backbend to bridge AND recover to standing, you won’t be able to do a forwards walkover no matter how much you try. A good proportion of the acro lesson should be spent on strength building and progressions leading to more difficult skills- these progressions can take years to master before eventually being able to do the skill they were intended for.
Clean technique and strength is essential, with no cutting corners, this is to avoid injury and so repetition repetition repetition on the mat is a must. A skill is ONLY ready to be transitioned to the floor without mats once the dancer can perform it consistently with no intervention/spotting, and with correct technique.

Even though I teach acro myself I do think it has crept into both the freestyle comps and theatre dance festivals to a point where the tricks seem to be taking over, combine this with some comps/festivals hiring adjudicators who clearly have no knowledge of acro technique and will place a badly done front/ side aerial or back handspring higher in the awards than a student doing beautifully clean walkovers because, let’s face it an aerial is more ‘showy’ than a walkover.
Worse still, are those teachers who want to jump on the popular acro bandwagon but can’t be bothered to actually do the proper teacher training with a reputable company and instead just buy a few mats and copy what they see on youtube. These are the teachers whose students are throwing out tricks dangerously, and who often fall and have near misses on stage. This is happening in both the freestyle and theatre competition circuits but seems to be even more prevalent in freestyle dance. Unskilled unqualified acro teachers give all dance teachers a bad name, and I completely see why some parents have their reservations about letting their child do acrodance.
My students are the ones at our local
dance festival with decent acro technique (am not going to pretend they are perfect but we work very hard on safe clean technique), competently pulling out their ‘safe’ acro tricks. They are working on much harder skills back in the studio on mats, but you won’t see them perform those in comps for another 1-2 years, until they have transitioned them safely to the floor. And yes, all of them are still in novice acro, often walking away consistently with 2nd or 3rd place having being pipped at the post once again by a scaerial or a bend legged, bent armed, undercut back handspring type solo. However, my dance families trust me to make the right and safe decisions for their child.

Im going to demystify some of the ? about why acro is performed without mats.
Acro should be performed without mats this is the whole point- to seamlessly incorporate acrobatic dance moves into the choreography as part of the performance. Acrodance is not the same as Acro (gymnastics) and I think that dance teachers should be doing a better job to explain this to their customers.

Nonsense. There's no justification for children doing aerial walkovers, somersaults and sports acro balances (these involve two or three people, the bottom person is a base, the top person a 'top' and so on) without mats. 'Seamlessly incorporating into the choreography' sounds like you don't want the mats to interfere with the non acro parts.

We will all know the difference between sports acro and gymnastics taught by a gymnastics club and 'acro' taught by a dance school thanks.
The hours of training the gymnasts receive, especially if they're squad, and the qualications of the judges. They also use mats for safety.

You're fortunate nobody has had a serious accident.

That was to @dancinfeet

That should have been qualifications of the coaches.

You can fit the dance choreography quite seamlessly with their routines on the mats by the way. Visit a gymnastics competition; rhythmic, sports acro, or floor section of general gymnastics. See how it's done.

@allto and what qualifies you to decide this?? I am qualified with the RAD, ISTD, IDTA and Acrobatic Arts thanks, I’ll take no judgement from a dance mum or from someone who knows absolutely nothing about acrodance

Well k know about gymnastics and can tell you that students who come to me via acrodance have been taught tge wrong techniques. They are taught work-rounds to compensate for kick of strength in my exoerience

Missing the point much. Your dance 'qualifications' don't make you a gymnastics coach or able to teach to the required standard.

There's no justification for allowing children to do somersaults, aerial cartwheels, aerial walkovers, front and back, or acro balances, etc, on hard floors and wooden stages, in church halls, without safety mats.

Their safety should come first.

RAD and ISTD don’t have any acro in their exam syllabi, iirc?

IDTA does have an acro dance syllabus, and I presume that Acrobatic Arts does as well? If those examining bodies offer full training for teachers delivering acro dance lessons to cover their syllabus, then it seems reasonable to expect that a teacher who has completed that and been accredited would be able to deliver the content of the syllabus well and safely.

Where dangerous practice is most likely to arise is where teachers either aren’t trained to deliver the syllabus, don’t deliver a carefully graded syllabus matched to each child’s ability and supported by eg appropriate strength work, or ‘borrow’ non-syllabus moves from gymnastics for solos or other competitions dances, which are outside their competence to teach safely to that age or stage of pupils.

Like poorly-trained dance school owners or employees delivering pointe lessons in ballet to all and sundry from an early age, rather than a careful development of strength and technique delivered by highly trained and accredited teachers, the risk is not from pointe / acro itself, but from exactly what, when and how, with what pre-requisites and by what individual, it is taught.

IDTA does have an acro dance syllabus, and I presume that Acrobatic Arts does as well? If those examining bodies offer full training for teachers delivering acro dance lessons to cover their syllabus, then it seems reasonable to expect that a teacher who has completed that and been accredited would be able to deliver the content of the syllabus well and safely.

IDTA has also offered gymnastic dance medal tests, etc, for some years, but they're required to use safety mats for the exams.

@cantkeepawayforever the issue also is pp arguing it's safe for children to do somersaults etc on hard floors and stages without safety mats.

Gymnastics and acro are sporting endeavours which take place in sports halls or a stadium in front of judges.

Dance is a performing art which takes place in a theatre in front of an audience.

That's the main difference to my mind.

I agree @taxi4ballet , but I’m definitely seeing more and more acro in dances at competitions these days