Looking for advice on swimming lesson

[SplishSplasher]

DD has just turned 5. She's been in swimming lessons since about six months old, although obviously took a break for covid and "swimming" was very much inverted commas for the first few baby and toddler years. She enjoys it and seems like a strong swimmer but I've been increasingly annoyed at her lack of progress recently.

Her swimming school does a preschool, red, orange, green system rather than the Swimming England levels. This wouldn't be a problem expect the classes don't dovetail - it's like there's almost no communication over syllabus whatsoever (although apparently there is one and her online profile tells me she's 4/6 of the way through completing red). The red lesson started with just 3 or 4 of them in the shallow end of the centre's big pool but is now about 10 children in the far end of the training pool. The teaching quality is pretty poor and what's being taught is often very similar to preschool level. DD spends about a third of the lesson messing around and talking to her friends while the teacher is busy with other students.

Except DD isn't ready for orange group either. She was briefly sent up with one other student (first thing she was asked to do was swim, I think, 10 widths of any stroke by herself - DD hadn't swum without a flotation aid at this point!). Teacher used to get really frustrated with both of them and eventually sent both of them back to red group after about four weeks.

If there weren't other factors at play, I'd be finding her a new swimming lesson. Except there are other factors at play - it's the swimming pool in the most convenient location, the lessons are at convenient times, DS is also doing toddler lessons beforehand and we're really happy with them and, above all else, she really likes her lesson and has made several friends there!

Husband says he wants to keep her in - he's noticed she is at least making SOME progress when he's gone out swimming with her outside of lessons - and argues a poor quality swimming lesson is still better than no swimming lesson. I kind of agree with him but was wondering if anybody had any insight/experience to share on this? I'm a little concerned she may end of reliant on flotation aids and struggle to move on from them if she's left in a lower level group for too long but then I'm also of the thought that it's important that she's enjoying it (and, if we moved her to a different set of swimming lessons she didn't like, it could put her off). I'm keen to keep her in until she's at "can have fun in swimming pool when we go as family with limited worry" level - which I would put at the somewhere between the orange/green lessons from what I've seen other children do.

The gap between the red and orange seems too big so if she is just messing around and not learning. she’s not going to go from what you say she’s doing to doing 10 widths without floats.

What makes you think she’s a strong swimmer though if she doesn’t swim without flotation devices? My 3 year old is doing activities without floats in her pre-school class and it was pretty standard in my eldest’s stage 1 class that they would do something with a float and then try without.

Yes, this is perplexing me! Red group NOW seems to consist of doing a width with a float (which she does and then mucks around with her friend while she waits for other people to finish) but orange group NOW consists of doing 10 widths unaided, no stopping, no excuses - and that just seems like a big gap to bridge! This being said, when she first started in red group, the groups were physically next to each other and the red group was doing literally the same as the orange but with more supervision, more use of floats (but not much more - I think orange would start with floats but then drop them while red would keep them). And, when she first started in red, we were told she was strong, was keeping pace with some of the kids in orange, wouldn't be too long before she was there etc. So I don't know what's happened here that has made the groups so far apart.

But I suppose my question on it is does that matter if she's happy and does seem to be getting better when we take her out on her own, outside of lessons? I think husband's thinking is that we now just write off her lessons as "fun time with her friends" on Saturday until we're ready to stop taking her brother to the same pool and don't count on it too much for progress - which I can see the logic of but then I'm worried she's going to end up relying on floats (although, after that orange 10-width-unaided lesson, she did do some swimming without floats when she was out with him so perhaps that worry is unfounded!) or pick up some bad habits she can't unlearn if she wants to swim beyond a "basic competency" level at a later date?

Agree with PP that the gap is far too wide between the 2 groups - there should be many groups in the middle. No child can even go from just about swimming one width unaided to swimming 10 in an instant - they need to build a lot of stamina along the way.

Surely if children progress from one to another, they work on technique for different strokes, not just categorise them to move up based on swimming ‘any’?

DC1 is 6 - in their lesson, they spend most of the time working on one skill (at this point it happens to be breaststroke), but also will do 2 lengths front crawl and 2 back each time together with other core skills. This is at stage 3/4 level, all are of similar level and they move pretty fast.
DC2 is nearly 5 and is not as strong but has consistent swimming in front with noodle, front with float, front unaided then all repeated on back. They then focus on skill for that week. The most advanced children do all unaided and are developing technique, weaker ones are still supported by teacher to get across
There is a consistent and clear structure to both their lessons which seems to be lacking for you. I wouldn’t be happy paying for that

Assume your doing this programme, if so take a look at the things they need to do for each stage and if the teacher isn't sticking to these it would be worth speaking to the leisure centre about it. Are you able to take her to the pool for any additional sessions with you or your DH to practice a bit?

www.swimming.org/learntoswim/swim-england-learn-to-swim-awards-1-7/

what are the competencies for ‘red’ might give other posters an idea of which class seems a bit ‘off’. 9 months (assuming you’re waiting until school age classes for younger one) is quite a long time to leave it if you’re not happy. What you don’t want is to build in bad habits like messing about as it’ll just make it much harder to learn properly. It can also be a bit demoralising if they’re stuck and know they’re not making progress.

does that matter if she's happy and does seem to be getting better when we take her out on her own, outside of lessons? I think husband's thinking is that we now just write off her lessons as "fun time with her friends" on Saturday until we're ready to stop taking her brother to the same pool and don't count on it too much for progress

It doesn’t matter if you & DH are giving her lessons outside these ones. You know the next step is 10 widths or whatever, so when you take her swimming start working on her swimming without a flotation device. The paid for lessons just become hang out with friends, increase confidence and practice.

This does not sound right. I don’t think she is going to make progress with a class of 10 unless they are all of a similar level to your child. It sounds like they have ability groups of large range of abilities. My children is at a swim school doing swim England which has 7 levels. The classes are of children of the same level or at most 1 above or below. I can see that if they are doing lengths and your child is doing 10 while others are doing 5. But not if you have non swimmers in the group.

It does matter if you want your children to swim.

How old is your toddler? My children’s swim school have lessons from 3+ and they start at the swim England duckling levels. Maybe it’s easier if you move both your children. If the younger is not yet 3, I’d just stop the lessons. Baby swimming is a waste of money. I did it with my first, but not long with my second. We took DC2 out and restarted her at 3 at DC1 swim school. She made much better progress then DC1 with water babies.

Thank you for advice so far - to answer some things raised:

• A summary of what the website says she needs to do to pass red is: basic pool safety, returning to standing from floating with a flotation aid, basic breast and dolphin stroke, basic sculling, 3m front and back crawl. To pass orange: different type of jumps into the pool, retrieving a sinker, log rolls, floating without a flotation aid, 5m front, back and breast stroke. The skills she's missing to pass red are 3m front and back crawl (website does not say but assume it means unaided).
• Unofficially, neither lesson is sticking to what the website says. Red group doesn't do front or back crawl without a float or a noodle, so how they are supposed to assess for 3m unassisted is beyond me. That being said, they do regularly do floats without a flotation aid and I'm pretty certain they've had a go or two at retrieving sinkers in the past. Also, expecting children who are supposed to be working towards 5m of swimming to do 10 widths straight off the bat seems drastically out of line too.
• Big part of the problem is the swimming pool was bought out by a larger parent company about six months to a year ago, which is what brought in the whole red-orange-green group system. I've raised concerns about the quality/difference between the swimming groups before - as have other parents - but the parent company just says it's the local swimming pool's responsibility and vice versa. I suppose I could complain some more but I doubt it will do much to change things.
• I think people are largely correct that the red group has been allowed to become too big and too varied in ability (I have my issues with the woman who teaches it but, to her credit, I think you'd need superpowers to successfully teach the group). The same can't be said of the orange group though - the last lesson before the two "former reds" got moved down, the lesson was literally just the two of them so it's not like they were holding people back. At the end of it, we were just told they weren't really doing what they were expected and were being moved back - that's it, end of discussion. One thing I did notice was the two of them spent a lot of time talking and wanting to break between exercises - which I stressed to DD wasn't ok now she was in orange but, equally, she's just come from a class where she's been taught that behaving like that is ok so I'm not sure how much you expect me win this one here!! So, yes, looks like there's a real risk she's just going to learn it's ok to mess around.
• Appreciate the consensus is formal baby lessons are a waste of money but we're really happy with DS's and are thrilled with the progress he's made. This being said, he's 3 in May, at which point he'll be moved up to preschool as soon as there's space anyway and, if the preschool lessons are like DD's, I was underwhelmed by them. So, while this is a factor in keeping her where she is, it's not THE factor.
• A bigger factor is that she's happy there. One concern is that, if I take her out, she doesn't like her new lesson/sees me as a villain for taking her away from her friends and swimming lessons become such a battle that she doesn't learn anything anyway. Part of me thinks "well, tough, because you need to learn to swim and they're not teaching you", part of me thinks perhaps I should just accept the snail pace progress in exchange for her enjoyment. After reading comments, I think I'm leaning more towards the "well tough" side, but I'm still torn.
• What's now become an even bigger factor since I first posted it's in a convenient location. It's about a 10 minute drive and in the town centre, so good for running errands or meeting people afterwards. The next best alternatives are 30 minutes from us and in the middle of nowhere (and about 30% more expensive). Since I first posted, I've re-raised concerns with husband - who has said he absolutely WILL NOT drive the extra 20 minutes and pay the extra money. So, basically, if I want his support, she keeps going where she's going or she doesn't go to swimming lessons at all. I COULD pay for the swimming lessons at a new place and take her myself but, to be honest, if DS's lesson becomes rubbish too, he might change his tune anyway so perhaps it's worth just sitting it out a bit longer and raising it again with him in a few months time?

Personally if I wanted my DD to progress I'd take her out, encourage keeping in touch with the friends and go the extra distance.
It's a false economy to pay less for lessons where you don't progress.
It's a shame type DH is blocking a constructive decision.
10 lessons at 30% more, where the outcome is moving on and closer to the point where she doesn't need lessons... is cheaper than 20 lessons where she's hardly changed at all (but had fun and facilitated errands).
My niece was competing in regional races at the age of 6 (she was unusually good for her age and the youngest ever squad member). So it's great that you're daughter is secure at her level, enjoying it and has water confidence... But given that's the case she should be stretched to the next step and beyond, otherwise you risk her eventually losing interest and switching off if it's same old same old every week.

This really resonates with me! We were in a similar situation with my son and the best decision we made was to withdraw from these group sessions and invest in 121. More expensive per lesson, but his progress was astounding and he became a confident swimmer within 4 months.

Sorry, wasn't clear, I mentioned the niece to show that young kids can smash it out of the park given the right teaching and environment. Encourage you to see she can do so well if you access good classes, it seems you're trapped by the ease and cost, but the false economy of that is holding you back from the goal of her being a free swimmer with all the skills.

I feel your pain. I have twins 7 in the bottom band where they spend their time piddling around in the shallow end. I take them swimming and they swim ten lengths of the pool 20m and rest of the time fetching dive sticks. I pay 10p a length and means I get a swim too.

Their instructor was on lifeguard duty the other day watching them zoom up and down hopefully it’ll encourage him to put them up next break. I suspect our attendance is the issue as Saturday afternoon spot clashes with parties and fun things so often gets ditched.

I would say we did a swimming camp in holidays for a week. Progress was brilliant. Maybe find something like that for Easter holidays, it’d probably bump her up a stage.

I think the combination of ‘red’ looks really weird though. Basic breast stroke is actually really hard so shoving that in with returning to standing from floating is odd. Sculling is in ASA stage 5, stage 2 would be 5m. Even if they were teaching strictly to the competencies they seem very out of synch with asa levels.

And then how is orange ‘floating without a flotation aid’ . That is ducklings 3 which is pre school. The whole framework just seems a bit odd before you add in the fact they’re not teaching to it.

If you can afford it, add some 1:1 lessons on top of the classes. That will really boost her progress. Or, like PP suggested, a holiday swim camp with a really good swim school.

Given your younger one is nearly 3, I would wait and move them both. It’s false economy to keep sending them to swimming lessons that you don’t believe they can progress in. Maybe your child is a slow learner, and she will need more lessons than someone who made it to squad at age 6. But that doesn’t matter if you can see progress. We don’t all learn at the same rate. But I am getting the feeling you believe you DD can do much better if the teaching is better.

The problem with just dragging on with lessons is that children gets busy with clubs when they get older, if they get good at it. Be it sports, music or dance or drama. Then swimming becomes something you can’t fit in. You want them to be where you want them to be before they get to year 5/6, or at least before secondary. For example, if ASA level 7 is what you want them to achieve.

By the way, my DC1 is a slow learner with all sports. She completed stage 5 in year 6. So I know that some children are just slow learners and you may not have a lot of time before they are grown up.

Actually I forgot the two years of covid so maybe you do have a lot more time!