Worried about things in Girlguiding - anyone else have issues/ concerns?

[Eggybrains]

Hello,

I'm a bit reluctant to go in to details here, but I have some concerns about Girlguiding, that the organisation themself seems disinterested in addressing. I'm NOT talking about the trans issue here, but other more fundamental issues of making sure girls are kept safe.

I wondered if anyone else had any concerns and if so if they'd be willing to share them and what the organisation did to address them?

TIA

In what way are you concerned?

You’re going to need to give more detail.

I guess the essence of it is that they’re relying on volunteers to do some very important stuff, and don’t seem to have a system to ensure it gets done properly. They don’t appear to train and/ or assess them properly. Some will already have the skills to be able to do it well and competently. What I worry about is those that don’t, and the fact Girlguiding seems totally unperturbed by this. I don’t know how widespread this issue is which is why I’m trying to find out from the masses if this is an issue others have faced.

There was a thread a few weeks ago (now gone), about complaints and I think several people said they’d complained and got copied and pasted responses, and didn’t feel complaints actually got read or acted on. I didn’t get to find out if these people were complaining about issues other than the trans issue, which I understand Girlguiding has a standard approach to “addressing”. If they have their fingers in their ears for everything - all concerns or complaints, that is worrying and interesting so I’d be interested to hear if others had complained, about what, and the response that they got.

Somebody also posted on here a couple of years ago asking advice about whistleblowing in Girlguiding. Someone replied to say that the result would be that the whistleblower/ complainer would be made out to be the problem, from their previous experience, which again is concerning and interesting - I’d be interested to hear if others have had this experience. As I said, this post was from a couple of years ago so I’d be interested to hear if things have moved on.

The specific worries I have about things not being done properly are things like:

• ensuring equality act is applied, for example not discriminating, particularly indirectly, against disabled people (some volunteers don’t seem to know that you can’t just say “no people with significant disabilities can join”)
• proper recruitment checks, which I understand is responsibility of volunteers, ie references and disclosures (DBS)
• training including safeguarding training being completed - our area recently had an email saying that volunteers needed a disclosure and some level of safeguarding training but it was “unsustainable” to expect anyone to check this
• risk assessments being signed off without being read, or relevant risks being picked up on

... this list goes on but hopefully this gives a flavour.

Just for clarity, I think most people who do this are wonderful, kind people, dedicated to helping our girls grow and have fun. This isn’t a dig at them. It’s a dig at the charity not seeming to care about safety of our girls.

My daughter is now in guides, having done rainbows and brownies. All of the leaders have been wonderful and very caring. Both here in south wales and Surrey were we used to live.

@nettytree

My daughter is now in guides, having done rainbows and brownies. All of the leaders have been wonderful and very caring. Both here in south wales and Surrey were we used to live.

Good to hear. I’m sure loads of people have a brilliant experience.

Is there anyone who hasn’t?

... more specifically with Girlguiding as a charity overall rather than at the level of individual leaders, who, as I said in my previously post, are generally kind and caring people who want to do the right thing for girls.

DD has volunteered with Rainbows for 5-6 years. From what she says there are very clear and strict rules for volunteers under 16 / 16-18/ over 18. This includes supervision and training on various issues. I know that as soon as she was 18 she had to produce ID to be DBS checked and wouldn't have been able to volunteer until this was done (it was during lockdown so no face to face stuff was actually being done at this time, but they were diligent about making sure it was completed).

They have a Young Leader programme to encourage children to progress from attending to volunteering to leading groups themselves. DD went to a Brownie Group led by a young leader and she was great. All activities seemed to be well planned and there was definite Health and Safety checks particularly on any away day activities. DD started doing the Young Leader programme although I think has paused whilst she's at university.

@BirdsBirdsBird

DD has volunteered with Rainbows for 5-6 years. From what she says there are very clear and strict rules for volunteers under 16 / 16-18/ over 18. This includes supervision and training on various issues. I know that as soon as she was 18 she had to produce ID to be DBS checked and wouldn't have been able to volunteer until this was done (it was during lockdown so no face to face stuff was actually being done at this time, but they were diligent about making sure it was completed).

They have a Young Leader programme to encourage children to progress from attending to volunteering to leading groups themselves. DD went to a Brownie Group led by a young leader and she was great. All activities seemed to be well planned and there was definite Health and Safety checks particularly on any away day activities. DD started doing the Young Leader programme although I think has paused whilst she's at university.

Absolutely, as I said I think there are areas where everything happens as it should. You’re right these things should happen, but I’m aware that they don’t always, and I’m concerned about that not being rectified. My concerns may be isolated.

There is, as you say, and I said, training, but it is poor, and I’m not sure that it fully equips volunteers to properly carry out these really important tasks.

I don’t doubt there’s hundreds of people on here who’ve had a positive and safe experience. I’m trying to find those that haven’t, if they exist. If they don’t, we can all just hang on for this to be a zombie thread and then maybe I can sleep easier knowing it’s just a small localised issue rather than something more widespread.

A lot of your concerns are the complete opposite of my experience with Girl Guiding, to the point I'm thinking of leaving! I've found them obsessive and a stickler for the rules.

They wouldn't let me start in the group until my DBS was back, despite the fact I have high clearance for my job (including a much more detailed DBS) and could show that to them.

Risk assessments for EVERYTHING, and them being rejected for finickity reasons. Scouts do a risk assessment for the entire term including any prospective trips out, and that's good enough for them. Guides you have to do a separate risk assessment for everything, including a COVID risk assessment. This is time consuming and unnecessary.

I got told I was "breaching GDPR" because I sent an email to the local leaders in my area and didn't BCC them in so everyone could see the email addresses. Except everybody already knows each others email addresses as we regularly contact each other

Obsessive chasing up of safeguarding training to the point experienced leaders who are out of date with (basic) e learning are threatened they can't take the girls away on a trip out, despite having completed higher level courses or even working in safeguarding for a living!

I feel a fear of being sued is ruining what has been a good organisation and sucking the common sense out of how it's run. Potentially I have been unlucky in the area that I volunteer in but it's all policy policy policy and no common sense.

@Wiltshire90

A lot of your concerns are the complete opposite of my experience with Girl Guiding, to the point I'm thinking of leaving! I've found them obsessive and a stickler for the rules.

They wouldn't let me start in the group until my DBS was back, despite the fact I have high clearance for my job (including a much more detailed DBS) and could show that to them.

Risk assessments for EVERYTHING, and them being rejected for finickity reasons. Scouts do a risk assessment for the entire term including any prospective trips out, and that's good enough for them. Guides you have to do a separate risk assessment for everything, including a COVID risk assessment. This is time consuming and unnecessary.

I got told I was "breaching GDPR" because I sent an email to the local leaders in my area and didn't BCC them in so everyone could see the email addresses. Except everybody already knows each others email addresses as we regularly contact each other

Obsessive chasing up of safeguarding training to the point experienced leaders who are out of date with (basic) e learning are threatened they can't take the girls away on a trip out, despite having completed higher level courses or even working in safeguarding for a living!

I feel a fear of being sued is ruining what has been a good organisation and sucking the common sense out of how it's run. Potentially I have been unlucky in the area that I volunteer in but it's all policy policy policy and no common sense.

That’s very interesting @Wiltshire90, thank you.

It does show that they don’t know their own rules. You should have been able to start without DBS being back, as long as it was sent off within two months of commencing or by your fourth time of volunteering, whichever is sooner, and you weren’t left alone with young members.

Not sure they understand GDPR either...

I was involved in an incident where I reported another leader for a serious matter, I was made out to be the problem and left guiding.

My experience similar to Wiltshire90. I’ve volunteered with other youth organisations - think the Girlguiding training is far above what some others offer, and followed up on. That said, I also think it’s too restrictive at times. Covid risk assessments have nearly broken me over the last year. We have a particularly risk averse district commissioner and group chair through..:

I am a Guide Leader. I am DBS checked, safeguarding trained and first aid trained. Everything is risk assessed.

I'm not clear on what your complaint actually is?

@wobbleinprogress interesting sounds similar to the poster on the previous whistleblowing post a couple of years ago. May I PM you? Thanks

No issue with girlguiding from our experience, although DD left in the end because the contrast with the scouting movement was too great. Brownies were still doing zoom meets while her brothers in the scouts were tearing around doing outside activities again and having far more fun. All her other out of school activities had started back a whole year before brownies did, and then they were told they would have to stay 2 metres apart for all activities

@tiredanddangerous

I am a Guide Leader. I am DBS checked, safeguarding trained and first aid trained. Everything is risk assessed.

I'm not clear on what your complaint actually is?

Congratulations, I salute you.

Not sure who said I was complaining?

Well what are you doing then?

@pinkpetrol do you mean me? In what regard? Typing a reply on mumsnet and thinking about hanging out the washing. Do mean specifically?

I retired from Guiding a couple of years ago, but my experience was much like Wiltshire90’s. The organisation was very rule-bound, with hours of training, procedures and manuals for everything, and a lot of (frankly) nagging for anyone who didn’t keep up.

*The specific worries I have about things not being done properly are things like:

• ensuring equality act is applied, for example not discriminating, particularly indirectly, against disabled people (some volunteers don’t seem to know that you can’t just say “no people with significant disabilities can join”)
• proper recruitment checks, which I understand is responsibility of volunteers, ie references and disclosures (DBS)
• training including safeguarding training being completed - our area recently had an email saying that volunteers needed a disclosure and some level of safeguarding training but it was “unsustainable” to expect anyone to check this
• risk assessments being signed off without being read, or relevant risks being picked up on

... this list goes on but hopefully this gives a flavour.*

@Eggybrains

At an organisational level:

Equality, diversity and inclusion: big focus over the last year, advisors appointed for advice and support at different levels, new strategy and a growing number of resources on the website: www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/equality-diversity-and-inclusion/

Very clear guidance on recruitment checks and relentless on making sure these happen - the system for joining flags these up; volunteers in charge of these are in 'area manager' positions with additional training and support.

Big push on safeguarding training being up-to-date across the organisation and exceptionally high levels of compliance as a result - monitored & reminders sent by paid team at HQ as well as very senior volunteers.

Significant amount of safety & safeguarding policies and procedures available on the website. Risk assessment training & resources provided in multiple formats, as well as further training for those assessing the risk assessments.

@AnotherGuideLeader

*The specific worries I have about things not being done properly are things like:

• ensuring equality act is applied, for example not discriminating, particularly indirectly, against disabled people (some volunteers don’t seem to know that you can’t just say “no people with significant disabilities can join”)
• proper recruitment checks, which I understand is responsibility of volunteers, ie references and disclosures (DBS)
• training including safeguarding training being completed - our area recently had an email saying that volunteers needed a disclosure and some level of safeguarding training but it was “unsustainable” to expect anyone to check this
• risk assessments being signed off without being read, or relevant risks being picked up on

... this list goes on but hopefully this gives a flavour.*

@Eggybrains

At an organisational level:

Equality, diversity and inclusion: big focus over the last year, advisors appointed for advice and support at different levels, new strategy and a growing number of resources on the website: www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/including-all/equality-diversity-and-inclusion/

Very clear guidance on recruitment checks and relentless on making sure these happen - the system for joining flags these up; volunteers in charge of these are in 'area manager' positions with additional training and support.

Big push on safeguarding training being up-to-date across the organisation and exceptionally high levels of compliance as a result - monitored & reminders sent by paid team at HQ as well as very senior volunteers.

Significant amount of safety & safeguarding policies and procedures available on the website. Risk assessment training & resources provided in multiple formats, as well as further training for those assessing the risk assessments.

Yes, aware of these @AnotherGuideLeader, but my issue is what happens when they’re not followed. Trying to establish if what I’ve seen is a series of isolated incidents (some have been in touch to say not), or if not, how many other similar situations are repeated across the country. It’s all very well having policies but if these aren’t adhered to, they’re a bit useless. I’m certainly aware things are done properly in some areas of the country - and it sounds like you’re on of those areas, so that’s great.

Amazing how any of us survived being Girl Guides in the 80s.

However, we did, and it was brilliant fun.

I'd be put off either joining as a girl or being a volunteer leader by all the rules and regulations now.

I'm lost on this thread. No one I know has ever had concerns. The girls are only there 1-2 hours a week as a recreational activity.

I'm a leader in training. The courses (both online and in person, depending on the nature of the training in question) are a pain, but are necessary.

There's a LOT of safeguarding protocol, lots of risk assessments, there are certain banned activities, adult to child ratio depending on numbers and location, and there's things we did in the eighties and nineties which came by done now for health and safety (we used to build our dishwashing stations out of twigs and string; this is no longer a thing for example).

DBS checks are done asap.

There's a lot of paperwork, a lot of refresher training, lots of meetings. It's almost a full-time job at times.

But it's worth it.

@bluetowers

I'm lost on this thread. No one I know has ever had concerns. The girls are only there 1-2 hours a week as a recreational activity.

That’s great. I’m aware not everyone has concerns. But more than one person does and I want to know how widespread this is. I’m not really that interested in being told that things are being done right in x area, because I’m absolutely aware that these problems aren’t universal.

@TyphooMary I’m aware of what the rules are, but also aware that these aren’t always followed. Aware that training doesn’t always happen. Aware that if this is raised as an issue it’s not always dealt with appropriately. Everybody’s anecdotal evidence that it works for them is great for them, but what I/ we are trying to establish is is it frequently not happening as it should (you describe it happening as it should), and if not, what is the response to change that. I am not alone in my concerns, but I haven’t found hundreds of similarly concerned people.

As for girls only being there 1-2h a week, I’m not sure that’s the issue. Girls need kept safe however long they are at any activity. They also often go away. You might be aware of some of the issues the Scouts and various churches have had? Girlguiding has got away with it for so long, I think, because it’s been a female only organisation, which has lead them to be too relaxed about making sure girls are kept a safe.