Singing

[Alakazam8]

I’ve posted on this board before but not directly about this. Dd wants to be a singer and is potentially good enough to do something in performing. Obviously has missed out on opportunities the last year or so due to COVID and didn’t get into Nymt this year, pretty sure this is due to other factors rather than her voice. She has singing lessons and other music lessons.
Anyway my question here is what should I be doing now to give her every opportunity to do this when she is older and who/which organisations could give me advice about what she needs to do.

What kind of a singer does she want to be?

And how old is she?

Sorry, these were important details! I’m not sure she knows yet. I’m thinking pop/ musical theatre possibly. She is 11.

Are there any singing groups in your local area, my local authority run various choirs including show choirs. I would also recommend perhaps a drama group or dance classes if she is interested in musical theatre.

Local amateur grous are just beginning to start up again so keep your eye out for local auditions etc.

What were the factors you feel meant she didn’t get into nymt? Hand on heart is she genuinely very good or mum very good?

@Orchidflower1

What were the factors you feel meant she didn’t get into nymt? Hand on heart is she genuinely very good or mum very good?

NYMT casts for the show. So if you are the wrong age or there isn't a part for your casting type it doesn't matter how good you are.

She’s genuinely very talented. From singing teachers, her dance class, school etc. She does dance classes, but not a dancer really. Have been looking for a choir but haven’t found one yet. She is doing a summer school at a local theatre school.
She didn’t get in to Nymt this year because of her age, invited her to perform (singing) online with them at a cabaret evening and asked us to stay in touch for next year.
Is there anything else to consider doing now at all?

Have your local am dram/ operatic society have anything she could join online just to boost her cv?

Have you thought about getting her to audition for NYCGB?

If you want her to be serious about a singing career, please do not send her to a theatre school. We have loads of youth choirs round my area, have you looked at a local choral society to see if they run a young singers version? This will enable her to get used to performing and solo opportunities regularly come up. Good and professional choirs will take part in competitions often, although not at the moment. When theatres reopen properly she can audition for small parts as practise. For example, our main theatre does several shows per year, pantos and musicals etc, where they have a small child cast as well as the adults.

Whereabouts are you? People may know of groups that normally run nearby but are perhaps suspended.

@delilahbucket

If you want her to be serious about a singing career, please do not send her to a theatre school. We have loads of youth choirs round my area, have you looked at a local choral society to see if they run a young singers version? This will enable her to get used to performing and solo opportunities regularly come up. Good and professional choirs will take part in competitions often, although not at the moment. When theatres reopen properly she can audition for small parts as practise. For example, our main theatre does several shows per year, pantos and musicals etc, where they have a small child cast as well as the adults.

Whereabouts are you? People may know of groups that normally run nearby but are perhaps suspended.

Why on earth not? Some choirs can be great, some can be run by people who know nothing about children's voices, they are just glorified pianists. Some theatre schools have excellent, specialist voice coaches, some employ students who sang a bit when they were younger.

Different young people will enjoy different environments. You have to try a few things out.

There are some exceptionally good theatre schools/groups.

if your daughter wants to be a solo singer then a choir won't be what she is looking for at all.

My DD (12) is very serious about singing - she has three teachers at the moment... one at school, one main one out of school and a third who she does a weekend class with (harmonies and group work as well as solos).

Main things I can suggest are to work as much at the exercises as the songs, expand rep and genres as much as possible.

If you're within travelling distance of London there are some very good weekend training schools - the audition entry ones are what I would recommend.

At 11, unless she is very, very tiny, you've missed the boat on most of the West End stuff but worth keeping an eye out in the Autumn.

It's an incredibly competitive business, so it's also about having the right personality and temperament. The amount of disappointment is HUGE and they need to be thick skinned enough to take the knock backs and get straight back out there and try again.

If she’s serious about singing one thing she could be doing now is learning music theory.

A friend of mine is a lecturer in musical theatre and she is astonished at how many of the current crop of students can’t read music.

Learning a bit of piano is also a very useful skill for a singer.

As @Comefromaway says you need to ensure the quality of the teaching of her singing and ideally someone who is experienced in the genre she would like to pursue.
My DD is now a triple threat, but initially was an actor singer with a small amount of dance. She choose to remain in main stream school till sixth form and is now at triple threat college.
She had singing lessons from someone who had an MT degree, had been west end leading lady and then a masters in vocal training. She was part of a well respected children's MT group that had a track record of children going into triple threat training and finally she was part of a choir run by someone with a music degree.
The choir worked on holding harmonies at one stage there were 12 children singing a 7 part harmony so ability to hold your own part was a taught skill. The choir leader also taught music theory at the same time.
The quality of the teaching of singing is essential to ensure good technic and ensure the voice us not damaged. My niece also showed promise sadly she went to a theatre school where they encourage belting whilst not teaching the correct technique and my nieces prospects were destroyed by nodules aged 12.
You have two choices if she is serious good quality theatre school or searching out good quality singing teachers.
Missing out this year on NYMT is not a disaster my DD did her first year and has then got on to two shows with BYMT.

@Comefromaway because as someone else has said, theatre schools are very good at ruining voices and they'll tell your child that they are amazing when they are not, and they won't teach anything useful at all. Sure there's the odd one that's half decent, but I've been in musical theatre for a long time, as have my parents, and I've yet to see one that is any good unless it's prestige and you pay for a full time education, despite the accolades half of them claim to have. They are an okay hobby but not for serious performers.

You are being highly selective of Lonecats post

My husband who teaches at drama schools and and is a vocal rehab specialist finds far more vocal problems from choir trained singers than kids who’ve combined a decent part time theatre school/youth theatre with an individual singing lesson. There are some great ones out there. Not all are great but as I said, the same can be said for choirs.

My own daughter starts at Stagecoach (shock horror). Her first singing teacher there was a classically trained teacher who had studied opera at the Royal Northern. Then she had a teacher who taught Dalcroze which was fantastic for ear training & musicality. Finally she was taught by teachers who had masters in singing & vocal pedagogy and had trained in Estill technique before going to dance/drama school. Her experience in a choir was not good. The choir leader had no idea how to get the kids to produce a safe, healthy sound.

She graduates next week and has been taken on by an agent.

[quote delilahbucket]@Comefromaway because as someone else has said, theatre schools are very good at ruining voices and they'll tell your child that they are amazing when they are not, and they won't teach anything useful at all. Sure there's the odd one that's half decent, but I've been in musical theatre for a long time, as have my parents, and I've yet to see one that is any good unless it's prestige and you pay for a full time education, despite the accolades half of them claim to have. They are an okay hobby but not for serious performers.[/quote]
I feel miss quoted my point was not that all theatre schools are rubbish, but that you must do your research and ensure the quality of the teaching which ever route you go.
My DD is now at performing arts college the principal and director of music @Comefromaway 's DH knows.
Every step of the way I did my research and ensure that the teaching was off a high standard.

I forgot she was there. Great to hear she’s doing so well.

Musical theatre courses are fiercely competitive, and for the better institutions you need to be a real triple threat to stand a chance at getting a place. Separate singing, dancing and acting lessons are the best way to ensure this, if cost permits, as recreational ‘theatre schools’ are rarely equally strong across all three. If you can afford it, look at Tring or Hammond for training. As well as their full-time school they have excellent associates schemes and summer intensives.
For pop rather than MT, consider the Brit School from Year 10 or 12 if you live close enough.

Let me re-assure you though that unless your daughter wants to be a dancer and cannot access good quality training in your area (or attend an academic school which means the juggling is impossible) then it is not necessary to attend a full time school/college until the age of 16. My daughter did go full time at 11 on a hefty bursary followed by a DaDa at 16 for the above reason but the majority of others at her current school only went full time at either aged 16 or 18.

Summer schools are a good idea though. My dd did Summer Schools at Hammond, Elmhurst, Tring, Malvern, OPES & Bird College and it really helped to give her an idea both of the schools/colleges when it came to applications and the standard etc of others out there. But be selective. Some summer schools are pretty much rehearse something and put on a presentation at the end of the week. My dd wanted summer schools where she would receive actual training for the week.

Thanks for all the good advice here . I’m not near enough to London to do anything there although there is a really good college for post 16 that I would hope for for her. I think I’ll look for a new singing teacher for her as a first step- she’s just changed over at the studio and I’m really not sure about the new one and continue with her summer school for this year. She is learning music theory and playing 3 different instruments and has perfect pitch which helps a little too. I just want to support her in any way I can really.

Good Church or cathedral choir will train her voice and give her amazing basics in ensemble, tuning, pitching and sights inging.

As with many things, "classical" training usually pays off because it gives you solid technique.

Am trying to contact a local orchestral choir for her but have had no luck yet with them. Will keep trying other avenues too.
Thanks for all the advice on here.