Starting music lessons

[chocorabbit]

I have started doing classical guitar lessons with DD but you can answer even if you play or teach other instruments! I am teaching her myself. I have never been graded but what I used to play corresponds to at least Grade 8. I am relearning theory which before was at least patchy. I have found the "Discovering Music Theory" books very good and she likes them too. We are still at the beginning so we are not focussing on exams but I have some questions:

• Do you have to follow a curriculum from ABRSM or Trinity or learn instead what suits your current needs and only choose the exam pieces at a point when you want to sit an exam? I have seen parents on here say that their teacher follows the ABRSM or Trinity curriculum so I am confused. What is that curriculum? The exam pieces syllabus?

• If you have learnt Scales & Arpeggios for e.g. Trinity are they accepted by ABRSM if you decide to switch for your next exam and vice versa?

• If much later you practise the Scales & Arpeggios grades 6-8, do they still ask you to play from the grades 1-5 as well?

• Apart from each board's syllabus and regardless of exams, is there any guide or any books as to what makes a piece a specific grade or a list of pieces for each grade?

• Do you need to sit your theoretical exams before your practical?

• If you study Trinity Aural books and CDs is it enough to understand? And would this be enough to sit for ABRSM. Does any of them fully cover the other?

• Are there any CG books used widely nowadays which you would recommend?

• When you go for your exam do you have a chance to sit somewhere and warm up, especially if it's a cold day?

Thanks!

There isn't a curriculum as such but good teachers will generally terach the aural, theory and sight reading requirements of whichever exam board they are using as they go along. The majority of teachers use tutor books with beginners.

Each exam board has their own scales requirements. The examiner will ask for a selection from the current syllabus, they won't ask for every single one but you don't know which they will ask.

For ABRSM you need to pass Grade 5 theory before taking Grade 6 or above. Trinity don;t have that requirement as their exams contain a viva voce theory section.

Lots of questions!

No, generally exam pieces are not a teaching syllabus, more checkpoints to say you've covered certain skills. Some teachers use exam content more as a teaching syllabus than others, personally I don't like that approach. You can teach in broadly that order, but exam content is not enough on its own. If I say our teacher follows Trinity, I just mean when it is time to do an exam, it's a Trinity exam that teacher enters them for.

Scales for exams used to be quite cumulative, particularly ABRSM. They seem to be moving away from that. Unless it specifically says otherwise in the syllabus, the scales you will be asked for an exam are drawn from the list for that specific exam. Yes it is different between boards.

No you don't need to do theory exams first or at all. The only constraint is before you take g6+ ABRSM you need g5 theory or certain alternatives.

Aural tests are different between boards and practising Trinity aural won't prepare you for a different board's test format. It would hell strengthen listening skills but to do an exam you'd normally want to practise specific test format.

Yes when you do an exam there should be a warm-up room with a piano.

No there isn't a definitive guide to what music is which grade. There have been cases of same piece appearing in surprisingly different grades, but then the quality of playing expected might be quite different.

These days there is no culmination of scales, you are asked for whichever are stated in the syllabus for the grade. But naturally they are set to ensure you cover them all eventually. I started learning guitar during the first lockdown, I’m a piano teacher and I found the Abrsm scale book quite useful.

As teacher, you set the curriculum, the exam syllabus is a useful guide.

Trinity aural is very very different to abrsm aural and the longer you stick with one the bigger the gap will be, sight reading can be avoided with trinity up to grade 5 but it’s not a sensible idea.

Abrsm have recently launched performance grades, which were implemented quickly in response to covid, I haven’t used them yet but from what i can gather you record and submit 4 pieces from the grade books, they carry equal weight to the regular exams.

Your best bet is to have a good read through the syllabus which are easy to find online. Abrsm, web site is infinitely easier to navigate than trinity. As mentioned above the only theory required is g5 Ab before progressing to g6, no requirements for trinity.

The only thing I would caution is teaching your own daughter, it lasted 2 weeks for me before I passed her to a friend, I know many who have tried, few have persevered.

Feel free to message if you have questions.

Thank you all for your responses!

@Comefromaway I intend to teach DD all the theory needed including the aurals which I have never done but we will give it a try. There are books and youtube examples + mumsnet

@thirdfiddle it's good to know that you can learn your theory as you go but can sit it whenever it is convenient.

@billybagpuss DD is the only of my children who accepted my offer! I had tried with her DBs but they soon lost interest but I understand very well what you mean.

It's good to know that you can teach whatever you want. Are there any guitar books anybody uses? Mine are too old which is not a bad thong but maybe there are less classical methods apart from Carulli and Carcassi. And my photocopies of other people's photocopies given by my teachers. I have got material but mainly for my level. Now I need to get for DD.

DS used these books at the beginning

The Guitarist's Way - Book 1, Peter Nuttall & John Whitworth https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0708021018/ref=cmswwrcppapifabcc_EE1RHJFVAZM1Z771JNJA

His teacher preferred Trinity to ABRSM for classical guitar

Thank you @Noteventhebestdrummer

I have another question. Are teachers (or a parent in my case) allowed in the exam room so they can see their student's performance? Probably it would be nerve-racking for a child. On the ABRSM website it mentions something about a "Responsible Adult" but I think they refer to vulnerable children and I think it is about their online theory exams.

No-one is allowed into the exam room. A responsible adult should accompany a child to the centre but will have to remain in the waiting room.

In exceptional circumstances a chaperone is allowed but it can’t be the teacher or anyone related to the child.

I'm glad your DD is learning classical guitar, it's really rare round here. Most people do electric or accoustic. I loved it all the way through high school and still had lessons at uni. It is quite a tricky instrument in my opinion as there is a lot going on. I find it really hard to sight read but can quickly pick up pieces I played years ago. I think I wasn't very good on the structure of chords which would have helped. There isn't an exam curriculum, you want to teach a broad range of pieces that teach all the various skills and styles. Exams are expensive and you absolutely don't have to do each one. My DD does a wind instrument and had only done grade 5. It could theoretically be possible to only play the exam pieces but it would be a very narrow way of learning. My dds do a mixture of quicker study pieces that they may only have for 1-3 weeks, and others they spend several weeks getting to nearly performance standard. Both are excellent sight readers due to this approach which means they cover a lot of repertoire. Try to include lots of duets too as this helps with rhythm and musicality. Classical guitar is lovely as a solitary instrument but I loved playing in groups too. I actually did some duets for my 6th year music exam. My teacher didn't use a tutor book but just various pieces which were progressive, then I went onto some books after that stage. There was a particular favourite, black with a red circle but I can't find it just now to tell you the name!

Thank you @Comefromaway

I guess there is no feedback either, or am I wrong? I used to get assessed by an external examiner twice a year (they never graded me but my performance/execution and material covered) and they would sometimes comment. I remember once I was told "that's not how you play Bach" (my teacher hadn't mentioned anything about style and I must have been above G6) and I asked him how I should but he only replied "well, whole books have been written about it" as if he couldn't answer it himself.

I have found plenty of both ABRSM and Trinity sample theory papers. I guess theory itself is not like their aural and the more practice the better. Is it ok to get DD to practice both of them (when the time comes) or will it be confusing?

Thank you all so very much!

When you get the results you get a report sheet with how many marks you got for each section and comments from the examiner.

Theory and aural are quite different, aural is about listening skills. More similar to theory is Trinity's "musical knowledge" option, though they only ask things about the piece you're playing so you don't need to know the entire theory syllabus.

When you want her to do an exam, you either need a book of aural tests for the right board/grade, if you play the piano; or a cd or app if you don't. As long as you're teaching good musicianship generally not mechanically drilling pieces, it's really not a big deal and you don't need to practice 3 different versions. Games like echoing clapped rhythms or copying each other playing short phrases by ear as part of your normal learning will help build listening skills.

@Comefromaway that's great!

@thirdfiddle I played in guitar what DD was learning in 4/4 and I told her to clap for 2 bars each beat. There were 8 quavers in each bar so I explained she should clap 4 times each bar. After a few tries she did it right. I saw it in the Trinity exam on youtube. Is this what you meant? It's very useful to know that there is no point their aural books because I don't play the piano to help her!! Is it ok if there are CDs with it? What apps do you use or do you just play the piano? So much easier!

What do you mean by "playing short phrases by ear"? Singing those parts?

I don't know exactly, yes I guess it would be the cd that comes with the book? DC's music teachers do it with them, piano teacher just plays the exercises and asks the question, brass teacher plays the equivalent thing on a cd then pauses for DC to answer. I think there also app versions at least for some exam boards - anyone confirm? (You could try asking on the big spring term music thread, more people likely to see.)

Yes getting child to clap beat or conduct is the sort of thing that is good prep for aural skills. Piano teacher used to make them count beats aloud while playing their pieces.

We also did copying games, that's what i mean by playing by early- so teacher or I would play a short phrase and child would try to copy back. And vice versa child would improvise a phrase and we'd copy of course, only fair! That's the sort of thing you might do anyway as part of teaching general musicianship. It's good for finding their way round their instrument too. Obviously you only use notes they've learned and small intervals to start with. Or similarly you can clap rhythm and echo, or even sing a phrase.

Then if you want to do an exam the listening skills are there and you just do a few weeks of practising the specific test format for that exam. (For mine, literally just did a couple a week in lesson.)

ear not early!!

Thank you @thirdfiddle very much!

All the information is very much appreciated!

@horseymum I missed your post! I thought since I had progressed so much why not teach some of the DC when others have to pay a lot to learn and many travel very far for lessons? Only DD has responded to my call. Playing an instrument that you enjoy is a lovely past time and DD has the advantage that now she can learn on a good, more professional guitar which is loud AND easy to play. My old guitar used to be quite better than other students' but so hard to play. Just the books can be expensive so I don't understand why some people do all the exams when it costs so much. Maybe to practise their scales, public playing, theory and aural and not mess up the big grades? I had my own books some abroad in my home country (my DSis brought me a few but not all). I know that some books are standard like Sor (the 20 studies by Segovia), Tarrega and abroad they still use Sagreras (I had to use tip-exx to erase the notes on the first pages) and Carcassi (25 studies). I also had lots of photocopies from my teacher which I now have again after almost 20 years! But I have downloaded for me many times more free arrangements done by some really wonderful people that you find on guitar websites or youtube!

I don't know chords much either, we had mostly done them in theory lessons but that's why I can't play songs by ear or if somebody told me to just play this or that chord I would struggle which I find terribly embarrassing.

For most of us the cost of lessons dwarfs any other costs involved so exams once a year or so is neither here nor there. I do prefer not doing every exam from a learning point of view though, I feel like at best exams are a consolidating step, and kids don't always need that. Between 2 kids x 2 instruments each we have full range from no exams to every single exam. No exams is progressing faster.

Exactly @thirdfiddle I so much agree with you! If you are progressing very fast you can cover the material of 2 grades within a year and you can skip one exam. I remember a lesson during the first year where my teacher spent most of the time showing me how to relax my right hand. She spent quite some time and was upset and I could see her relief when I managed to do it. There was not going back after that! You can't play arpeggios or tremolos otherwise. I had seen students who after a few years still hadn't managed to achieve this and were still playing at a beginner's level. My teacher and subsequent teachers had a problem constantly finding them material for beginners to practise.

But regarding not many students taking up CG which @horseymum mentioned I am not sure but every single local kid who is learning music has taken up piano. I think the guitar does not sound as classy. But what I have noticed is that although you do find boys taking it up (all the Trinity exams on youtube are by boys, sorry but I have not looked at the piano grades!) and also more or less famous British guitarists on youtube are again mostly men. It's as if it is a boys' instrument and does not suit women just like the "girls" and "boys" toys where nowadays they even have pink legos.

Where I come from we had private music schools which were a lot cheaper than having a teacher coming to you or you going to their house. At least half of CG students were girls! Also when I see international guitarists on youtube there are lots of women and it is more equally split.

@billybagpuss how is your guitar learning going? Do you have a teacher? I don't know how you can learn good technique witthout a teacher and I find myself constantly correcting DD's left hand, opening her legs wider, moving the stool etc and I can't imagine doing this to another child although my teacher must have done so at some point

@chocorabbit - re "I remember once I was told "that's not how you play Bach" (my teacher hadn't mentioned anything about style and I must have been above G6) and I asked him how I should but he only replied "well, whole books have been written about it" as if he couldn't answer it himself."

I doubt very much that he couldn't answer it himself He probably thought, rightly, that it is not his job to teach you about historically informed Baroque practice during your exam. He is also correct that there are indeed loads of books written about how Baroque music needs to be played, many of them written around that time.

You don't just hit the notes as they are written when playing Baroque music like Bach's. There are specific ways to interpret this music, with emphasis on phrasing, delaying certain notes, ornaments before cadences, etc. Your teacher should have taught you about how Baroque music is to be played and made sure that is how you played before putting you on stage to be evaluated.

Since your instrument was the guitar, I assume that you were playing one of Bach's so-called "lute suites" (BWV 995-1000). I played some of them on the harpsichord and would be happy to give some examples if you would tell me which one it was.

@CoteDAzur sorry, I didn't see your post.

I don't remember which suite and which part it was. You are right about the lute suites though! I recently got back from my sister the Suite 1007 which I had finished but I think it was something more advanced that I played on that exam. I agree that he did know but because of time constraints he couldn't have taught me on the spot. I had hoped that he would have at least mentioned a single element. He was a guitarist himself and my teacher (for the last 2 years of my studies had been) was ..his wife. I hope he had a word with her later And yes, she should have taught me. Before her I had had other teachers and in fact one of the least experienced ones had been the most helpful with expression. I was the best at expression from all the other guitar students but apart from that one teacher the others' help with expression and time period relevance was not very good.

When I see guitarists playing on youtube and I go to their website, even though they must have a diploma they always tell you a list with even more teachers whom they have studied with since their diploma, names that I don't necessarily recognise but they always learn including technique AND expression. So it baffles me why some teachers wouldn't teach much beyond technique especially since musicians BEYOND diploma seek more knowledge.