Music in schools

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I’ve started looking around schools for my 3 year old for next year and I’m a bit disappointed that my favourite school overall seems weaker on music. They get the chance to learn keyboard and recorder but that’s it and there are no orchestra or groups other than a choir. How common is this in state primaries now? And if you want children to learn do most people do it outside of school? I went to a fairly rubbish school (ofsted inadequate) but most people had the option to learn an orchestral instrument and there were loads of groups and opportunities to play. I’m starting to wonder now with hindsight whether I just got lucky (there was a v passionate music teacher) and my expectations are out of synch with what’s normal. Or is my prospective school just a bit rubbish at music provision?

Orchestras are not very common in primary schools, often there isnlt a teacher will the right skillset. But many local authorities have county ensembles run at local music centres that take children from all the schools in the area. Some will be auditioned so they have to be of a certain standard, some will be training groups.

My daughters school has a choir and an orchestra, and specialist music teachers come in for various instruments so it is out there. Have to pay for everything though.

It's pretty normal tbh, there just isn't the budget these days for supporting music lessons/ teachers. You may find the school facilitates external providers to come and teach if parents are prepared to pay, that is normal, but many schools won't provide much else other than a choir.

I suppose it's quite normal for state primaries not to have any orchestra. DS's school didn't have one. In fact they didn't have any ensemble, band, nothing. They had a peri for violin and piano but the progress was very slow and only few seemed to reach grade 1 or 2 by the time of leaving. Children who learnt outside school seemed to progress better to be honest. The local council run music service seems a good choice as they tend to offer affordable lesson fees and although audition is required for some advanced groups, they also have lots of ensembles/orchestras/bands for beginners.

My school doesn’t have music lessons or an orchestra. I’ve never even heard of a primary school with an orchestra

I don’t mind paying but there doesn’t even really seem the option of outside providers doing orchestral instruments in the school which i find a bit sad as I know the county do offer a music service. I was never brilliant but got so much enjoyment out of playing. I will look at outside lessons but I don’t know if I’ll be able to fit it in around work.

Oh yes, they also had a choir but they didn't have a choir teacher so some parents and class teachers were helping on rotation. Not ideal at all..

Unfortunately music is struggling particularly in primary schools. You'd be lucky to find an orchestra. My kids school used to offer violin, keyboard, piano, guitar, flute, clarinet. Now the only instrument is violin and only a handful of pupils take lessons. County music offers lessons and groups on a weekend. It is hard if you work full time. My DD plays violin and has lessons in school but also does a county group orchestra on a Saturday. My DS does trumpet but has private lessons one evening in the week.

If the county have a music service you will be able to organise instrumental tuition and any amount of orchestras/ensembles groups through them.

DC's primary shared peri teachers with the local secondary school but they only offered a limited number of instruments (about 4 I think) and whilst they managed to get together enough children for a string ensemble, most of them left at the same age and the group folded.
TBH I found at primary it was a real pain having lessons during the day, it so often seemed to cause logistical issues with whatever they were doing in class.

@RedskyLastNight - it is through the county music service and it may be different in her school as it runs from nursery right up to year 6. Only school I have any experience of in recent years so maybe it is unusual. Thinking back, maybe the younger children aren't involved.

Sadly, I would say unusual to have an orchestra in primary school these days - some do, but a small proportion I would say. (Even becoming less normal in secondary schools tbh!) Most seem to have some sort of choir though. Instrumental lessons vary hugely and will usually have associated costs.

Look into county music service - even if they don't currently deliver lessons in the school that's not to say they won't if there's a child that wants to learn. You may start something...

Adding a note of caution though... school lessons not usually very effective for very young kids. Teachers can only write limited lesson notes (because we'd all rather they were actually teaching rather than scribbling, right!?) and the little ones don't usually retain that much of what happens in the lesson... if you want to start her young, probably best to try and find a private teacher so you can be involved in lessons and support practice at home.

State primary schools rarely have orchestras etc. Simply don't have the funding.

Best bet is a county music hub. Ours does Saturday groups for infant school age, progressing onto the junior Saturday morning group. They try different instruments and then progress through the different ensemble groups, finishing with the county youth orchestra.

Standard is far higher than at any primary I know. Where are you in the country?

Our county music service provides peri teachers in school both primary and secondary. They also offer whole class lessons which some schools do depending on school budgets. There are few primary music teachers these days so lots depends on what staff they have. Even if they currently have lots going on, all it takes is the one teacher who can play piano to leave and suddenly there is nothing! But the county service has groups for 3 yr + at their centres instead. Have a look at what your area provides first.

Most schools do individual music lessons by getting peri teachers in or through the county music service where it exists (some exist in a very different way to how they used to).

I think expecting an orchestra etc in a primary school and being concerned about it age 3 makes your expectations way out of what's typical.Usually there's ensembles for primary children through the council/county service, but they tend to start from year 3 upwards.

The situation is a bit sad these days, especially if you grew up in the days when music in schools was better. But a choir is still better than nothing and recorder groups are useful for learning basic music theory. Maybe you could do lessons in school and then go to the local music service for ensembles. Saves having to do it all outside of school. I'm sitting in our local music centre right now listening to band practice having been here several times already this week. Have been involved for 7 years now (kids are in their teens now) and it's absolutely the best thing ever - kids have a great time and have made lots of friends. Thank goodness these places exist.

Primary music is woefully inadequate at most state primaries. The money isn't there and it can't be justified. It has a knock on effect for uptake and attainment at secondary and we can start to see this now in the hugely reduced numbers opting for GCSE and A level.
I'm a school music teacher and feel very sad to see this decline. Currently I'm the private sector where I can confidently keep my job for the time being!

DCs state school has a huge orchestra, recorder ensembles in each year group, a choir, a separate Head of Music teacher. Every child learns recorder for 4 years and keyboard for 2. There’s guitar club and lots of visiting musicians. All that is free. Theres 5 different visiting peri teachers, from the county service who also offer lots of ensembles etc for a minimal cost.

It’s the exception not the norm around here to have quite that much provision for sure and it’s a large part of why we picked this school. It makes me so cross that this isn’t how every school is, they deserve the funding to do this.

A lot of primary teachers don't bother to teach music at all. It's shocking.

Blue waves crashing.
I think that is a sore misunderstanding of the educational climate in the UK today.
Primary teachers do not decide ‘oh I won’t bother to teach this lot music’ for whatever reason.
Their every session is scheduled by the leadership team, and most primary teachers have very little autonomy about what and how they teach.
The way our schools deliver education is the interpretation of the head and governors of the national curriculum in the way that they see will most likely to appease ofsted.

You may have meant to say ‘most primary schools don't bother to teach music’ which is nearer the mark.
But don’t paint primary teachers as being the ones who don’t bother.

Rant over.

Sorry @thistly but I'm a teacher, in my last school most teachers were very reluctant to teach music and some, not all, never taught it.

Senior leadership were far too worried about sats results to push it. They literally didn't care. One of the reasons I left that school. I believe it happens in other schools too.

It really pissed me off to be honest that these teachers thought it wasn't their job to teach music. In the absence of a music specialist, which is a good solution but expensive, they moaned they didn't understand music and so rarely or never taught it.

@Bluewavescrashing is right to a degree - less not bothering, but more underconfidence. As a specialist music teacher I can understand this - it is difficult to teach music if you don't feel confident so it is easy to barely deliver or not do at all.
Early years and KS1 teachers are usually more up for it as it is mostly singing but beyond that it's much harder to find evidence of good practise.

I used to do a lot of training for non specialist primary music but budgets don't reach anymore .

Happy to correct 'a lot of teachers' to 'some teachers' if that helps.

I think it can depend on having at least one member of staff know is enthusiastic about music.

I'm a governor at a state primary. We have a fabulous TA who took in the choir when the last teacher left - she has now revamped the whole music curriculum, organised choir trips to large London venues, small concerts at residential homes etc.

But even she doesn't have the resources to start an orchestra. Luckily, the local music hub organises group concerts, and open days in school hours, but you still have to organise private lessons and regular ensemble stuff yourselves.

Interesting to hear your experience Blue Waves. My experience of primary school is what you mentioned, that senior leadership push sats only. One teacher is allocated music, and gets to circulate round the classes, and younger teachers who want to do music with kids are not allowed.

I can totally imagine if you didnt do much music through school yourself, as a teacher with no underpinning knowledge, you might shy away from it, just like some teachers shy away from MFL and I'm sure there are other subjects too.

I guess part of the problem is the one year pgce course which prepares NQT’s so inadequately.

That's true, it's sad that music is undervalued. I just feel like even though I dislike history, I know I have to teach it and get on with it. People shouldn't train to be teachers if they don't want to teach all subjects.

In this school parents would receive curriculum overviews sent home including key objectives that would be covered that term, music was on there but teachers were open about the fact that they weren't teaching any of the music.