Viola advice

[folkmamma]

Having a bit of a nightmare finding a suitable viola for 11yr old violinist DD. We need a 13" viola of decent quality. She is at JD and plays viola as second study - prob around G7-8 standard. Violin is definitely the main focus, so we don't want to spend a fortune, but equally don't want a cheap student outfit. So far we have tried a Hidersine Vivente pimped up with decent strings - but still sounded rubbish. She's currently playing a 3/4 size violin re-strung as a viola, but the cut of the bridge is all wrong and it doesn't have enough oomph to cut through in ensembles, which is where she does most of her viola playing.

We are going to look at a Sebim (not a make I'm familiar with) on Saturday, and Stringers are also encouraging us to come and try their conversions, which apparently go beyond just changing the strings. I have also had conversations re a Gliga Gama and a Zeller, but I'm a bit nervous of ordering a new instrument without trying it first in case it's no better than the Hidersine! If anyone has any experience of Sebim, Gliga or Zeller violins or violas I'd love to hear what you think. Better still, if you could send me a recording of one being played!! Also, the Stringer's conversions....

TIA :)

I have no experience of those instruments but I feel your DD's pain having been a small 11 year old viola player once... Have you thought of hiring an instrument from the Benslow Trust? They have small violas, although maybe not that small.

Have you tried anywhere else other than Stringers? Thwaites in Bushey are pretty good for violas. The owner's daughter is a professional viola player and I think he has a bit of a soft spot for young viola players.

Ooh thanks I haven't tried Thwaite's actually, good inside info 😊

Benslow don't have anything sadly, they only have 1 13" and it's out at the moment.

Can't really help with your purchase but good to know Thwaites is still going - I got my viola there in the 1980s as a young viola player!

@Carlamity I wonder if we know each other!

Possibly! I was in the HarrowYouth Orchestra and sat near the back of the violas!

We have Gliga, the oiled one. It sounds amazing even with original non-upgraded strings on. I found it in a shop in Camden, brand-new, and it was cheaper than buying online too.

By the way we had a Hidersine, and Gliga is definitely on another level. I would not buy Stringers though, I was so disappointed with their viola, (we tried the most expensive one) and I was not sure if it’s suitable past grade 3...

Thanks @Pinkcloud3!! I have heard good things about the Gliga violins too. I think if we don't like the sebim tomorrow (which will be a rental) then the Gliga is the way to go 😊

Yita music are currently offering a beautiful looking 14 inch viola for not much more than £225. Add in postage from China, maybe £70, plus some attention from a violin shop, (decent strings, checking bridge and soundpost) and I assure you, you will have a very serviceable instrument. Put Yita into "sellers" and you should find it. I have bought many violins and cellos from them and haven't had a dud yet.

@GrannyHaddock we need a 13"... but will check it out, thanks.

@Carlamity That's probably about the only orchestra in the area I never played with! One of the best things about being a viola player was getting drafted in through friends to make up numbers at the last minute for other orchestras and schools when they had concerts. I did play with their rivals at HSYM (that rehearsed at Hatch End High School) when I was at primary though. And I did have friends who played in Harrow Youth Orchestra but none of them ever recruited me!

Sorry to derail... Hope your DD finds a viola, folkmamma!

Violins and cellos are literally perfect in their design: the wooden sounding boxes contain exactly the right volume of air for the registers in which they play. Since a viola is tuned exactly an octave above a cello its sounding box, or body, ought to be exactly half the size of a cello. This of course would be impossible to play in the normal way, far too big and heavy, so every viola that was ever made is a compromise between size, i.e. tone, and comfort. Around 15.75" is considered about the minimum viable, though there are some examples of smaller instruments that work well. Even 14" is minute for a viola and will struggle to produce the characteristic viola sound, especially on the C string. After all 14" is only the size of a normal violin. 13", well, I can't see how it could work at all. I know a few professional players who have taken up instrument making, usually for a hobby. Guess what, they were nearly all viola players in search of the Holy Grail!

Maybe it would be better to wait until your daughter has grown a bit. I can understand her wish to play on the viola though. It is a very special experience.

She's already playing and has seats in some high level orchestras, so there's no going back now!! You've explained very well the reason we are having such difficulty in finding something suitable though - I'm hoping the Sebim we see today will be ok enough that it will keep her going for now until she grows a bit....

DD’s viola is 13” and it definitely sounds like a proper viola, maybe a little bit quieter than the teachers, but our teacher bought hers for 150k, and we paid £400. I think a small quality instrument can definitely sound very good, it also depends on the player and their technique ...

Good to hear @Pinkcloud3. Yes, DDs beautiful violin is also relatively quiet but that's because it's a half size! She has to work very hard to get a big sound from it. I can't wait for her to grow!!!! We have a lovely 3/4 waiting in the wings (actually it's the one she is currently using as a viola...)

Good to hear @Pinkcloud3. Yes, DDs beautiful violin is also relatively quiet but that's because it's a half size! She has to work very hard to get a big sound from it. I can't wait for her to grow!!!! We have a lovely 3/4 waiting in the wings (actually it's the one she is currently using as a viola...)

My daughter had Gliga violins (3/4 and 4/4). She also had one if their violas, but she didn't take up the viola until she was in mid teens so she has a 15.5 one.

We liked them, especially the better Gama model, which was perfectly good enough for grade 8.

Liz at elidatrading is good to deal with and will take instruments back if you're not happy with them (or rather she always used to, and I assume hasn't changed her policy).

Folkmamma are you in London? If you want to try the Gliga out, you can come to this shop, dotsmusiccamden.co.uk/collections/gliga-violins/products/gliga-genial-1-viola-outfit?variant=4506288390173.

For some reason I really did not like the idea of Gliga, before we tried it and I was sold. Maybe take DD to this shop and see what she thinks?

Thanks all for the advice - the Sebim was a good job! It's a rental, which actually suits us quite well for now. We're only committed for 3 months, so it buys us time and if still not quite right, at least I now have some ideas as to what to try next. Will definitely spend time checking out the Gliga next time around. We aren't in London, but come in every Saturday for JD so we can check out the place in Camden. 😊😊😊

Small violas which sound well are truly rare; you cannot alter the laws of physics. Distinguished players like Hermann Ritter (who assisted Wagner to improve the violas' sound in the Bayreuth orchestra) and our own Lionel Tertis spent much time and effort into trying to develop large, full-sounding instruments that were playable because the available violas, mainly smaller ones, were not up to the job. These new large violas were flawed, however (despite Ritter adding an E-string) and have largely dropped out of use. Really, Pink, if there were numerous small violas that sounded marvellous, top professionals and soloists (whose skill and technique are not in doubt) would be playing happily on them, but that is not the case. They are mainly playing on violas of more than 16".

Woah, I don't think anyone is trying to defy the laws of physics... fractional sized instruments are always a compromise (we've had almost as much trouble with little cellos!). But these kids have to learn on something. All we can do is search out something that makes a decent sound and is 'playable' until they grow enough for the bigger sizes. I'm pretty impressed with the one we got today, by comparison to others we have tried. It got the thumbs up from teacher too. So there are some out there, even if they are quite rare....

Granny so what do you propose my petite 8 year old should practice on??? She used to have a violin string as viola, and the change to the actual mini viola made a huge difference in sound. Anyway she is not a soloist, only going to sit her grade 5 viola exam in December so I guess it should do for now ...

Stringers conversions are very good. Don’t rule them out- it’s worth trying. Most music shops will let you take them away to show to the teacher/try at home for the cost of the insurance (around £6). I have had some very good smaller violas that are SieLam. Guiviers used to stock them- they are made in either a gamba shape or traditional. (If I recal). I bought one for myself to teach on and ended up selling to a grade 7/8 student - it was the ‘gamba’ shape.

Pink, I am impressed that your daughter is playing the viola at 8 and making a good sound. In my school orchestra days we had hardly any violas at all really. Some of the music had a third violin part to try to compensate.
Viola soloists are a rare breed. In many cases they achieved a high standard on the violin before switching. Paganini played viola sometimes. Exclusive violists do not have equivalent repertoire to help develop technique that violinists encounter.

Granny I agree about viola players. It’s my daughter’s second instrument, Her first instrument is violin. There are much more small viola players now, our teacher is fully booked. We are all trying for music scholarships, competition is crazy in London...