DD and her violin exams - any music teachers here please?

[R202020]

Hello ladies,

 DD (11) has just had her grade3 result (ABRSM). She has AGAIN only passed. This has happened 3 years in a row :( 

Last year (Grade2), she got 110/150. She was determined and worked harder on grade 3. She loves violin and she might want to pursue it professionally. She plays at 2 orchestras. I attend all the lessons with her and the teacher seems good. At all her lessons, her teacher said she was doing really well. DD practiced A LOT through out and before the exam. She ended up with 110/150 AGAIN!! She is soo disappointed, and has started thinking about leaving the instrument. She said "mum, if it takes all that effort for me to just pass, may be its not for me"

What does it take to get a merit or a distinction? She is willing to put in all the effort she needs to, to become a musician. Whats going wrong?

Ahok, my dd only practise 20 mins per day (not violin) but does all scales and arpeggios daily she knows them inside out same with the pieces. Those would be easy marks to pick up. Do you listen to her practice? I can't play my dds instrument but I do listen to her practising, do sight reading together etc

Also my likes making up her own music and teaching herself songs off you tube etc, ctgere has to be a fun element!

My DD got very bored with the (three longer) exam pieces tbh!

You do need to practice the scales and arpeggios a lot though.

@CherryPavlova : We asked her several times if she wants to try another instrument. Piano perhaps? We asked her yesterday again. I got a death stare and said "I'm a violinist" followed by some crying drama. We told her, we could stop grades. That's not acceptable either !

I told her what people are saying about scales. She is upstairs now, doing grade3 scales. (she is at home today as she threw up last night - just seems a one off but i'm supposed to keep her home for 24hours )

@Hollowvictory: I "listen" to her practice, but usually from the kitchen.

How do you do sight reading with her? I never tried. Is that easy to understand?

@Hollowvictory: Making up music and learning youtube is such a cool idea. I will tell DD, she will jump at it ! She tries other pieces from the book all the time.

R202020 not unless you can read music?

I would suggest that she's sitting the exams when she's ready to pass but hadn't nailed the scales, arpeggios nor the pieces to a standard where she can get a merit or distinction. She's practising a lot on her own but with no feedback on how she's progressing other than in her music lesson so she's basically not practicing the right things eg scales or making the same mistakes and not knowing. I would sit with her and watch and listen to her practice a couple times per week, not from the kitchen but actively listening.

I’m a piano teacher. I would not put a dc in for an exam that would get that low a mark on scales. I aim for all dc to be around 19/20 mark for scales. Then 25+ for pieces. Normally my dc get between 25-29 (am get to get 30 sigh) per piece. That’s really most of what I can super control before the exam. Then I quickly go through aural work and encourage sight reading practise but mostly hope for the best there after practising with dc what I can in lessons.
I would suggest if your dc really enjoys music you find a teacher that has a track record of getting distinctions but also one who has experience of working with dc who need bringing up to that standard. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with a pass but if your dc is keen it’s better to invest in a good teacher earlier on to give them the best shot of becoming good. Violin I would imagine os even more important for this as it’s a difficult instrument to play really well.

@Hollowvictory: Exactly whats happening with our practice etc. She is practicing, but without proper guidance, she perhaps isn't correcting her mistakes.

@redjumpa : That's the approach I'd like my teacher to have. How can I find a teacher with a track record of distinctions?

Also, have you asked her teacher why she's not getting distinction or merit?

Hi OP - I am a musician (not teacher) and all my children play violin. Firstly the scales can be upped definitely. Should be aiming for 20/21. Lots of practise on them, but also focusing on tone, speed, steadiness of rhythm and intonation. Intonation obviously tricky on a violin. Scales need to be played everyday so the start of each practise session.
Aural - there are practise books you can get with a CD which helps for practise, also there are online apps too.
Certainly read the exam comments to see where marks have been lost.
Sight reading, again there are practise books so do a little sight read every other day. Check rhythm, dynamics, keep going etc.

Her marks are quite decent, no areas are bad.

And yes if she's practising a piece she needs to concentrate on the tricky couple of bars.

Also it it's good to have a few practises with accompaniment because it can be tricky to play with a piano.

How much practice did your daughter get playing along with the piano accompanist? (I make mine practise along with you tube before the exams and their strings teachers can actually also play the piano - it is quite helpful). How many solo performances has she done? An exam, is really also a performance. Is she comfortable performing in other situations, e.g. school assemblies? (ie could it be nerves) My 7 year old son has come on in leaps and bounds since performing regularly in informal concerts. I think your DD's aural and sight reading marks are good, but her scales and pieces let her down. As mentioned by redjumpa above, all my kids teachers aim for 25 plus in pieces and high marks on the scales. Those are the bits most kids do well on - they are the predictable elements. Dynamics and control and steady pace really need to be there. I also second that the sound a particular violin makes is quite important. If she loves playing, she should definitely continue and not let the exam grades put her off. I am also not particularly musical, but am trying to learn the basics along with the kids. I have also started taking them to concerts. It makes me realise how important breathing and bow control is. Also FYI, my son (he is only 7) is the better player, but my DD (10) knows how to ace most exams, including music exams, and tends to always get distinctions.

She’s dropping a lot of marks on scales- they are pretty easy marks to get. Does she practice scales?

@R202020 you can either be upfront and call around teachers and ask how their students do in exams or you can go to local music festivals and see which teacher gets the most wins. Overall your dc must be happy with their teacher as well though. Imo anyway.
My dd learnt the violin and her teacher was incredible but absolutely useless at managing her hyperactive 4 year old ways. I on the other hand adore teaching the younger ones so each teacher will be different it really is a bit of a faff to find one sometimes but when you strike gold you’ll know! HTH

Have you talked to the teacher without your dd being present?

I have a hazy recollection of violin exams myself and DD(11) has just done grade 4 flute. These are the sorts of mistakes we make/had to correct.

What does your DD do when she makes a mistake? She shouldn't stop - just plough through and hope it is a one off.

During her practices she needs to go back to the phrase and just focus on getting that right...then add the phrases before and afterwards.

Is she at the sort of school where she could perform to an audience or just some fellow students/family? It might be nerves that are making her lose a couple of marks in each section. Also does she get much practice with the accompanist? ABRSM have an app into which you can download their piano parts. That might help her get a feel for the tempo etc.

Scales are easiest to fix (somebody suggested a lucky dip approach - it certainly worked for my DD). Make sure these are at about the right speed too (you can get a metronome online/as an app if your teacher hasn't thought to check this).

Dynamics in pieces: When you hear her playing does it all sound about the same noise level? It probably shouldn't! You might need to do a bit of googling here/get hold of a theory book but get your daughter to talk you through the piece ('getting louder...loud bar...rest for 3 beats...') then make her play it back. Dynamics tend to go by the wayside if DC is playing something over and over again (probably knowing the notes off by heart). Look on Youtube to find people playing the set pieces.

Also try not to simply focus on exam pieces - it won't help her sight reading. Let her enjoy playing again - if it means she ends up playing Disney Themes and Harry Potter music for a term, so be it.

Not a teacher but I was a violinist growing up and still play when I can find the time. My first teacher was of the view that you should go in for an exam as soon as you were at a point you could pass it, then move on to the next thing. I remember him being a bit scathing about teachers who would hang back until the next exam session just so their students would get a higher pass mark and in the meantime would be working on the same three pieces again and again and again until they were bored stupid.

I only got a distinction once, for grade 8, and I 100% put that down to having been entered for the exam when ready and then having to pull out last minute due to something unrelated and reenter the next time around, so I'd had more time to get on top of scales etc.

If she loves playing then IMO the most important thing is to play in ensembles a lot, and perform whenever she can - these are the skills that last for life, not learning to technical perfection a grade 3 piece that she'll never play again. I'm no Nicola Benedetti and was never going to be, but I could sit down with a good amateur orchestra tomorrow and not embarrass myself.

Lots of praise for her determination. Well done for doing well in sight-reading and one of her pieces! They are merit standard!

Have a look at the marking criteria on ABRSM website. That will give you a rough idea. Have a look at their interactive "On Your Marks' videos, too. They demonstrate how an examiner marks the exams. You may not find the exact grade/instrument combination but they give you a pretty good idea, and it's fun. Scales/arpeggios are something you practise every day or as a warm-up. There are some ABRSM apps which may help your DD such as scales trainer, aural trainer and violin practice partner. I agree with pp about not practising the whole piece all the time. If she encounters difficult parts, she should practise those bars, slowly, again and again, until she perfects them.

Another thought is to have a chat with the violin teacher (without DD). Some teachers let take pupils take exams at pass or good enough level, while others will allow pupils to take exams only when they reach a distinction level. Grade results are sometimes dictated by teachers approach, rather than pupil ability. Discuss with the teacher how you want to move forward. With Grade 3, your DD should be doing 'Studies/Etudes.' If she hasn't started it, it's worth asking the teacher when he/she is starting.

And the last note. Exams are only exams, and music examiners are human. There are generous ones, but there are stingy ones!

There is absolutely no reason to do exams. None.

My husband and I are both professional string players, as is our son, and none of us did these exams. Kids at the Menuhin school don't do them, nor did most of the musicians I know.

If your daughter loves the violin and feels like she is good at it that is SO much more important than anything the exams offer. I think the exams are a lazy way to give kids goals to prepare for, when they should really be preparing for little concerts and performances (more trouble to organise).

Exams are joyless, artificial things, and they create a secondary motivation (getting a grade) which often destroys the real intrinsic motivation or loving and sharing music.

Hi - I also have an 11 year old daughter who took grade 3 recently (December). She got a Merit by one mark - but I was quite surprised she did that well as she was a bit shaky. Again it was the scales that let her down though. I think they are hard on the violin - really hard. Her teacher yesterday was talking about approaching each scale as a mini performance - to make them enjoyable for an examiner. That might help? Also ABRSM have a couple of good apps - a scales app (where you can record yourself and hear yourself against a professional), and Practice Partner where you can slow down the accompaniment. They might help her practising?

“Exams are joyless, artificial things”
Depends on the student and the teacher. My kids both enjoyed doing exams, and their teachers didn’t make a big deal of them. And bits of paper are always useful. My dd missed out on a brilliant opportunity once because despite 15 years of dancing she had no bits of paper to show.

I agree exams aren’t worth getting upset about, though.

BertrandRussellI am not saying that no kids enjoy the process of preparing for exams and doing them.

I am saying that preparing pieces from a small list of often less-than-inspiring possibilities, going to an exam centre, waiting, playing for the examiners, (who spend all day listening to exams), is not comparable to the intrinsically joyful process of communicating with an audience (who have chosen to be there in order to hear you), and playing with friends and colleagues (who want to play with you).

Unfortunately, the whole system in this country is geared too much towards exams, and not enough towards playing little concerts, playing simple chamber music, and other things which help kids to enjoy learning music. Even when kids play concerts, often it is to prepare them for their exams, so the repertoire is not necessarily the most interesting for everyone.

My kids never did exams, and not having the bits of paper never stopped them from doing anything they wanted (things like NYO). All you need to do is send a letter from a teacher saying that they are "Grade 8 equivalent" or whatever.

I am not sure about ballet: perhaps because it is more geared towards learning in classes, there are more rules about taking the exams.

I really feel for her. Kids with musical parents have such an advantage here. I'm not a teacher but having learned myself, I would know the deal.

It's hard to tell what she isn't doing without hearing her. Or may be she is doing everything and just suffers from exam nerves. Do you have the feedback sheet from the exam, the wordy bit? Ought to give you some clues as to where the marks are going. Another thing that might help is playing in a local music festival, compare her playing to other kids in a grade 3 class and see if you can spot anything. You could also play spot the difference in her orchestras and compare her to those sitting at the front (if she isn't already).

Does she have lessons in or out of school? Does teacher give her practice notes? Even as a non expert you should be able to get an idea of whether she's practising the things she's been asked to and whether it's getting better.

Generally though I think this is a question you can and should ask the teacher.

It may be a different teacher is what she needs. Can you sound out other youth orchestra parents about the teachers in the area?

I am not sure about ballet: perhaps because it is more geared towards learning in classes, there are more rules about taking the exams.

Most ballet schools do exams becuase it's via dance exam boards that teachers become qualified and get their policies/insurances etc and there are certain techniques that need to be mastered in a certain order (to some extent) An unqualified teacher can do a lot of harm to a growing body.

But both dance schools my two have been to the actual exam itself is optional.

However serious dancers, who go off to train at vocational schools and colleges often find that they dont't do exams. My dd's school does but only to give the kids the pre-requisite qualifications they need to enter dance teacher training if they so desire at a later date.