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d of e - is the practice expedition compulsory?

32 replies

SileneOliveira · 04/03/2019 17:10

I am almost at the end of my tether over my DS's silver D of E. He is so disorganised, never passes on messages, it's me who is organising the parkrun, and the volunteering - feels like me doing the sodding thing and not him.

Anyway. He has today produced a crumpled note from his bag with proposed dates for the practice expedition during the Easter holidays. One of the set of dates works for us. However, if the other set of dates is chosen, we are out of the country on holiday. DS is unable to tell me whether he will be allowed to do the final expedition in June (canoeing, not hiking) without doing the practice. There are also separate basic canoeing, water safety and first aid training sessions which he will be able to attend.

School are asking for the money - understandable - but I don't want to fork out £250 for the practice and final expedition if it won't count.

And there's no sodding way he's doing Gold unless he sorts himself out.

OP posts:
BackforGood · 04/03/2019 21:34

Yes, they need to log both the practice and the assessed, on the eDofE record.

I understand some dc need - ahem - some 'support' with organising themselves, but you are doing him no favours if you are virtually doing it for him. He might not get it signed off if he hasn't demonstrated that he is doing it. Silver DofE should be of quite a high standard. He will need to report on what he has done for his presentation, and some assessors do the job better than others in terms of asking questions.

lljkk · 04/03/2019 21:41

Beg/ask around to find another family that can host him for the days you're supposed to be on hols & he's not on expedition, if it comes down to him having to use those dates and him missing the hols.

I would also contact the DoE leader & whimper a bit about could they try very hard to use the dates that don't conflict with your hol.

Gosh, canoeing for DoE? Where do you live, anyway, that can fill 3x7 hour days with canoeing, and how do they transport all the stuff & keep it dry. Never knew not-hiking was an option.

lljkk · 04/03/2019 21:42

... and who pays for the canoes!? How did they get insurance for that? At least the route finding should be kind of easy, I guess.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 04/03/2019 21:59

He has to do a practice expedition at Silver level, yes.

Canoeing is quite a common method of travel for DofE expeditions. All you need is a river! Ours have done expeds on the Wye, but our Gold groups go up to Scotland. Kit is carried in a waterproof canoe barrel.

SileneOliveira · 04/03/2019 22:50

Have had a clarification email from school - they will put him in the practice group which fits our dates.

We're in Scotland - many of the councils have an "outdoor education" department which have minibuses, canoes, tents and so on. So the council outdoor education officer will pitch up at school with his minibus and however many canoes, drive the kids up to the Trossachs and teach them the basics. I think the real expedition is on Loch Awe, which is 30 miles long and has islands in the middle. AFAIK they are starting at one end, finishing at the other and camping on islands along the way.

For the practice and real thing then they will also drive them and the canoes up in a minibus, then leave them to it. They are having weekly meetings at school covering things like first aid and route planning.

As for the cost - we are paying for it. But obviously not the whole cost of buying a new canoe, they equipment will be used all through the year by schools and groups across the council area.

OP posts:
lljkk · 05/03/2019 07:21

Are the staff who run DoE going up & down in motorboats? Ours drove around constantly checking on the (hiking) expedition, and had to be able to rescue the kids obviously. Are all the canoes doubles? Do the kids have to verify they can swim 200m or further before they are allowed? Is the minimum time out of camp each day still 7 hrs? What sort of bags do they have to put their stuff in, inside the canoes? What are their strategies for what to do if all of someone's stuff goes in the water?

Sorry, am genuinely intrigued. I reckon your DS's canoeing silver is worth a heap more than my DD's hiking silver was (!)

notacooldad · 05/03/2019 07:28

Gosh, canoeing for DoE? Where do you live, anyway, that can fill 3x7 hour days with canoeing, and how do they transport all the stuff & keep it dry. Never knew not-hiking was an option.
The exped can also be done on horse back or bicycle. Those with disabilities can use a wheelchair.
Canoeing expeds are quite popular using canals.
With regard t funding it depends which us running the course. Doing it through our Young Peoples Services is very cheap.

notacooldad · 05/03/2019 07:47

Are the staff who run DoE going up & down in motorboats?
Not necessarily. We cycled tow paths. Occasionally they are out of sight, if we have to take a road but this is acceptable.

Ours drove around constantly checking on the (hiking) expedition, and had to be able to rescue the kids obviously. You don't have to drive round constantly. We have check in places. A good planed route means you know the escape paths if they need emergency help. A lot of time with remote supervision is hanging around.

Are all the canoes doubles?No, they can use kayaks

Do the kids have to verify they can swim 200m or further before they are allowed?They have to be competent swimmers and be able to handle a canoe or kayak. They are trained in advance. They don't just jump in one on the day of the practice

Is the minimum time out of camp each day still 7 hrs?Yes, of course.

What sort of bags do they have to put their stuff in, inside the canoes? Dry bags. I like Ortlieb but The Exped range is excellent as well.

What are their strategies for what to do if all of someone's stuff goes in the water?The kids are trained in how to do a rescue.

Sorry, am genuinely intrigued. I reckon your DS's canoeing silver is worth a heap more than my DD's hiking silver was(!)*
I get what you mean but it is worth exactly the same. Some kids find the canoeing or cycling a doddle and would find it easier than hiking.

lljkk · 05/03/2019 08:21

Thanks for info, NaCD. If you're cycling, would you plan to phone for ambulance if emergency? How would you transport a soaking exhausted giving-up kid back to camp if they wanted/needed to finish a day early? Don't you camp near the kids too (I mean on the same island, so how does your stuff get there if you're not on a boat)? (DD gave up hiking on day2 of her practice, she wasn't fit enough for it, so had early lift back to camp, but did manage day3 practice hike to be fair).

Ps: DD's friends are all doing gold & DD is assuredly NOT.

lljkk · 05/03/2019 08:25

ps: and all the extra training required such as rescue, or checks for canoeing/cycling/horse-riding competency, how many hours does that take?

(coz no-one tends to verify you can walk safely, do they?)

I imagine your Risk Assessment forms are much longer, too.

Does the cost of the expedition cover the dry-bag hire & you use them against for the next year, or do parents buy & keep the dry bags for each kid? I assume kids supply their own bikes when cycling but then what do the safety checks include, who fixes any punctures or broken cables/spokes?

Just curious. DoE is great effort for the adults, not hiking seems to add so many dimensions of extra challenge.

SileneOliveira · 05/03/2019 08:38

TBH we haven't been asked to verify DS can swim. But he can. And they have been very strict on the fact that lifejackets will be worn AT ALL TIMES. So much so that DS said something like "surely they'll be OK with me taking the lifejacket off when we're on dry land setting up camp".

They have had hourly meetings after school since Christmas every week, covering things like meals and route planning but also water safety and first aid. This weekend is the canoe/kayak training (have no idea what the difference is between a canoe and a kayak, all the way through it's been described as canoeing). They have a full 9-4 session on the water, practising basic skills but also capsize drill and emergency stuff. No idea what will happen in terms of supervision on the actual trip - Loch Awe is long and skinny with a road running right along the side of it so they will never be out of sight from the shore. Think there are 16 kids, split into two groups of 8.

School offered both hiking and canoeing - hiking was significantly cheaper. But DS did his gold scout award last year which is broadly similar to bronze D of E and hiked for that. He wanted to try something different.

We have not been asked to buy any special equipment like dry bags, lifejackets or tents. I am assuming all of these will come from the same place the canoes are coming from.

OP posts:
lljkk · 05/03/2019 08:43

Seeing as it is Scotland, May your son be blessed with good weather, Silene :).

SileneOliveira · 05/03/2019 08:45

Good weather in Scotland = not blowing a force 10 gale or snowing.

They have said they will only cancel the practice and real expedition in "extreme weather". The real expedition is the first week in June, it's usually a great time of year with long hours of daylight and fairly settled weather.

OP posts:
notacooldad · 05/03/2019 08:56

If you're cycling, would you plan to phone for ambulance if emergency?
I'm not sure what you mean. In all cases an ambulance would be phoned for if needed. That would be built into the RA at the planning stage before the trip has been approved.

How would you transport a soaking exhausted giving-up kid back to camp if they wanted/needed to finish a day early? By putting them in the minibus. If you are talking about canoes , the canoe would go on the trailer. However by the time it gets to practice and qualifying level the young person should have built up enough stamina and expierences to Del with the day.

Don't you camp near the kids too (I mean on the same island, so how does your stuff get there if you're not on a boat)?. I can't speak for others because we don't camp on islands.
Staff don't necessarily have to camp at the same place as the participants at Silver level, we do at bronze though.

ps: and all the extra training required such as rescue, or checks for canoeing/cycling/horse-riding competency, how many hours does that take? I ve never done a horse one but my colleagues in a different authority have. The young people doing them would be really familiar with horses and have their own.

The type of exped we can offer depends on the skill set of the staff. In our authority we have very keen canoeists who are qualified to teach.
Our Dof E sessions seat in September with a view of doing the practice at Easter and the qualifying session in May. If the first practice has been a disaster we may re do it in May and the qualifier in the summer holidays.

(coz no-one tends to verify you can walk safely, do they?) Yes they do, they need to demonstrate they can read a map, ( they don't need to do bearings at bronze level but I expect it at silver). , they should be able to work out timings and pacing and work out how long it will take them to cover a instance in different terrains, find escape routes, ways to get off a hill,how to load and correctly fit a ruck sack so it doesn't cause a strain or back damage, deal with an emergency, aid a walker who has hurt themselves.

I was reading a thread a few months ago on here about the walking exped and it sounded like some young people more or less turned up on the day and set off. I would be angry if that was my child. I would feel they haven't put the time in or learned anything. I get that not everyone likes the camping bit but you have to suck it for the award.

I imagine your Risk Assessment forms are much longer, too. Not necessarily. Once the RA is done for an activity it can be reused. We just revisit for the following exped, to see if it is still relevant or if anything needs adding etc.

Does the cost of the expedition cover the dry-bag hire & you use them against for the next year, or do parents buy & keep the dry bags for each kid? we have our own kit in central stores that we let the kids borrow. Obviously some kids prefer their own stuff but we can lend everything from compasss, trangias, tents boots, even socks. The only thing that they supply is food. ( even then we've helped out when we know the family is really struggling)

I assume kids supply their own bikes when cycling but then what do the safety checks include, who fixes any punctures or broken cables/spokes? no we supply the bikes and prefer that they use ours as we know the maintence history etc on them. They are expected to be able to do basic repairs which we teach them on the 'open sessions' that we run.

Ps: DD's friends are all doing gold & DD is assuredly NOT.

notacooldad · 05/03/2019 08:57

SileneOliveira
I hope your lad has a good exped! What a fantastic place to do it!

MariaNovella · 05/03/2019 09:00

Canoeing sounds like a good idea. One of my nephews did hiking and the boys ended up carrying the girls’ stuff as they were just too small to bear the weight. At least with canoeing they will be sitting down.

notacooldad · 05/03/2019 09:45

I forgot to say you can also sail or row your expedition but I may not sure how popular that is! Certainly not in our LA!

Just as a recap here is the requirements and what is expected in terms of evidence for the practice and qualifier.

www.dofe.org/doing-your-dofe/activities-sections/expedition/expedition-requirements/

BackforGood · 06/03/2019 21:46

Not sure why you are so concerned about this lljkk Grin

Some people have done lots of canoeing. Some people have done no hill walking / navigation / first aid / risk assessing / etc before they start training for their DofE Expeditions. As NotaCoolDad says - it would be very negligent of the group leaders to let a group set off on an expedition on foot / horseback / cycle / kayak without putting in a considerable amount of either training, or an assessment to check competency beforehand. Because someone can walk down a street doesn't mean they can walk on mountains.

Ginger1982 · 06/03/2019 21:49

I'm amazed they give you a choice of dates! When I did gold 19 years ago, you were told the weekends you had to be away and that was it! And I'm in Scotland too!

lljkk · 06/03/2019 21:57

I live in a flat county. No mountains involved in local Silver DoE. We struggle to even find a steep hill. DD got sunburnt on hers, I suppose. And evil blisters on the practice.

MillicentMartha · 06/03/2019 22:05

My DS did kayaking for his Silver D of E. The went bloody miles! Had to carry their kayaks around locks etc. Carry all their food, camping stoves tents, clothes etc in dry sacks in the kayaks. The only thing provided by the D of E supervisors was a daily water ration. He loved it! But yes, they did have to do a practice.

It was run by his Explorer group who had kayaks and dry sacks and was very well run.

Icypop · 06/03/2019 22:31

I did silver (and gold) canoeing. The best bit was not worrying about the weight of anything...we ate like kings, wheras my sister did walking & packed as light as possible as she had to carry it all so her food was pretty grim with minimal treats!
The worst bit was one day when the wind changed and we canoed hard for an hour and got literally nowhere...
We gave up alot more of our free time than the walkers though, as we had canoeing practice every Sunday for weeks to make sure we were up to standard.
To the OP...our expedition was loch awe too, being a sea loch we had a seal follow us round for the three days..id forgotten about that until now it was amazing!

Icypop · 06/03/2019 22:49

Actually...i take it back the seal was loch etive, i think loch awe must have been our practice as we def went there too! In my defence this is all 15 years ago!!

BackforGood · 06/03/2019 22:56

I live in a flat county. No mountains involved in local Silver DoE.

Yes, but surely the people doing the expeditions have to then travel to slightly more challenging country. I mean it doesn't need to be mountainous - moors or other wild country s fine - but it needs to challenge navigation, and therefore the walkers need to have learned and practiced those skills before setting off.

notacooldad · 07/03/2019 00:39

Yes, but surely the people doing the expeditions have to then travel to slightly more challenging country. I mean it doesn't need to be mountainous - moors or other wild country s fine - but it needs to challenge navigation, and therefore the walkers need to have learned and practiced those skills before setting off
I totally agree. We live in area with plenty of hills and countryside but we still do a lot of our expeds in a different regions. We use parts of Wales, The peak District and Scotland for our award.

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