Cello help needed please

[NewToCats]

Please can some one explain the fingering on a cello for me? I know this is probably a ridiculous question to ask but dd doesn't understand, and I've no idea either.

So ..... When playing notes, you either use fingers 0, 1, 2, 4 or 0, 1, 3, 4.
How come you sometimes use 2nd finger and sometimes use third finger? How do you know which one to use each time?

Between the 1st finger and the next note, there is either a semi tone or a whole tone. For instance, if you are playing A, B, C#, D, you would use A, 1, 3, 4, but if you are playing A, B, C, D, you would use A, 1, 2, 4.

If that isn't clear, can you take a picture of the song and upload it, and we could tell you the fingering?

So using 3rd finger is just for sharps?
Will go and look at some music and see if that fits.

Not necessarily. There’s a semitone between each finger. So in 1st position (with no extensions), first finger will be a whole tone above the open string and then a finger on each semitone after that. So 3rd finger will play 1 whole tone above 1st finger - which may or may not be a sharp depending on what string you’re on and key you’re in.

Oh dear. Sounds complicated.

Wow! Just had a revelation! The notes and fingers go
CDEFGABC 01340134, yet when you go higher than that it goes
DEFGABCD 01240124.
So all you have to remember is that the lowest 2 strings use third finger and the higher 2 strings use second finger.

Also I get (well I don't actually 'get' it, but I can see that tones and semitones come into it.
And then obviously sharps and flats have to fit in somewhere inbetween.

Yes - exactly right :D (as long as you're in C Major!)

How long has your DD been playing? It sounds like its not long - it does all make sense in the end, I promise!

Longer than you might think, but absolutely no confidence at all.

She is struggling with the wishy washy nature of the notes. I.e. on a piano you place your finger and it plays the same note every time. On the cello you can be out by a few millimeters and make a completely wrong sound.

I know a child who learnt violin by ear - a set of cds that she learnt to play along to as she simply couldn't read music. She had a teacher to teach the holds / positioning.

Does such a thing exist for the cello?

I haven't come across mention of a method to learn cello by ear, but I'm not a teacher and I learnt a long time ago (and cello was my 2nd instrument so I could already read music).

What kind of suggestions is her teacher giving her?

Does she know how what she's trying to play should sound? Does she have a reference to know if she's got it right?

Actually, I'm not clear if her problem is with reading the dots on the stave or reproducing the notes on the instrument?

You can’t assume that you will always use the third finger on the lower two strings and the second finger on the upper two strings - as pp has said, that only works if you’re playing in C major i.e. no flats or sharps. Unfortunately most beginner cello music won’t be in C major as other keys are actually easier to play in at the start!

How is her teacher explaining this to her? Would it be possible for her / her teacher to write the finger number above the notes until she gets the hang of it?

I also wondered if the attached picture might help if she’s struggling to visualise the notes.

Thanks for all your help. She can read the notes, but lacks the confidence to have a go at playing them. TBH I'm not sure cello is the right instrument for her. She is coping well with the piano because if she plays a key it makes a consistent sound, whereas to her, when she puts her fingers in the same place on the strings sometimes it is right and sometimes wrong (clearly she is not putting them down exactly the same so it produces a slightly different note). She is not allowed to have stickers under the strings so she has no point of reference of where to put her fingers. Its all too vague for her. It was easier when she couldn't hear the notes as much as she wasn't aware it was sounding wrong, but she is now very good at hearing the pitch/tone (?) so can tell if it doesn't sound right.

It's a shame she's not allowed stickers at least to start with. My dc has done G5 and still has stickers at the fifth and octave to help navigation in the higher positions. I would say a beginner needs a sticker for at least the first finger to get the hand in the right place. Have you got a very strict teacher there? I'd be looking for another. Are you able to tune the cello ok? The cello is a wonderful instrument. Every string instrument is hard to start but very rewarding.

Hmm. See I'm cautious about dots/stripes. On the plus side they do give a target to aim for and, hopefully, develop confidence - but for me there are a few downsides the biggest of which are that in order to see if your fingers are on the dots you have to look at your left hand and there's never a good time to look at your left hand if you're a cellist (especially if you're in 1st position as you need to move your head out/swing your shoulders and turn it so you modify your entire posture and throw everything out of alignment, creating a whole new set of problems). Getting the stickers in exactly the right place can also be bizarrely hard - and there's few things worse than a child playing "in tune" with stickers that are misplaced...

Definitely a good idea to check the instrument is in tune every time she practices, though.

The fact that she's aware that she's playing the wrong note is a Very Good Thing. You need to know something's wrong before you can start to fix it :).

I'd still be interested to know roughly how long she's been playing - are we talking weeks, months, years or decades? Has she had the same teacher throughout? Does she get on with her teacher? Is she making progress, even if slowly? Can you talk to her teacher about the issues your daughter is having?

Do you still have really REALLY easy pieces that she did very early on that she could go back to? Does she feel more confident and play more in-tune if she does that?

How good an ear do YOU have? From what you've heard is she not getting any better, or has her ear developed faster than her intonation such that although things are improving she perceives them as no better?

String instruments can be so hard. Some people take to them like a duck to water and others really struggle with aspects like this to start with - but if they want to get there and persevere it will come.

You can put a sticky dot between the strings which can be felt rather than having to look. You're right, placing them can be tricky as the exact position can depend on the width of the player's finger tips, but it might need a couple of attempts to find the right place.

Will start tuning it every few days. Usually I only tune it when she asks me to (probably every month or so .

She LOVES her teacher, who is lovely and gentle and jolly. So much so she wouldn't dream of changing. Teacher is happy for her to 'play for enjoyment' rather than trying to rush through the grades. She has done grade 1, been playing for 2 and a half years, could probably do grade 2 but doesn't want to.

So desperate to 'not make a mistake'

Many, many (hundreds of) years ago I played a few different instruments (by ear), so although I have no real idea of music theory, I can hear what is right and not right.

Learning by ear is the Suzuki method and yes you can do it for the cello-my son does. And also has the strips of tape on the finger board-it helps in the early days

You really need to check it's in tune every time she plays, sorry! Same for any string player. Changes of temperature and humidity will affect the tuning.

I’d check the tuning every time she practices if possible.

My former cello teacher always said that in the long term it’s better not to have the strips of tape as it gets you used to adjusting the finger position when needed from the start but it does mean that progress is slower until you get used to it. But if she’s really not getting the hang of it after 2.5 years then would her teacher consider allowing it?

She’s been playing for two and a half years and doesn’t know the difference between 2nd and 3rd fingers? Ooft. Have a word with her teacher, sounds like she’s playing by numbers rather than reading the music and understanding about notes and key signatures.

I would go back to a really simple exercise to build confidence. For instance, I would have your daughter play 0, 1, 3, 1, 0, 1, 3, 1 quite slowly, and listening quite carefully. That is the beginning of Frere Jacques, and she will recognise if it sounds right. You can make little games out of this, (do it in the dark, do it 3 times in a row and get a smarty, turn over little pictures every time one is in tune, make "sweet" and "sour" silly faces, etc) and you can find lots of pieces which only use the 0 1 3 4 pattern. I would stick with these simple songs for a while, until she feels confident with this pattern, and only then would I go back to playing pieces which have both 2 and 3 in them.

I used to be against using tapes on the fingerboard, but actually they can be really useful for people who don't have musician parents to help them. I would just put a tape down for 1 and 4 and explain that the note in between is friends with 4 (so 3) for now. When this is clear we start to use 2 (friends with 1). I teach violin though so don't have such an issue with looking at the fingerboard.

Oh NO,, I am really sorry, I made a silly typo and wrote that Frere Jacques is 0 1 3 1 0 1 3 1, which of course it is not.

It is 0 1 3 0 0 1 3 0 !!!.

I am extremely sorry to be even more confusing by making a dumb mistake like that, when I am trying to be extra clear.

I also teach violin a bit, and have said to some of my students and parents that the tapes are more to give the parent an idea where the finger should be. Eyes are in charge of what the bow is doing, ears in charge of the left hand!

I agree that taking her back to something she knows really well and playing it for a good sound and good intonation will help.

Also tuning before every practice session, as best you can. When I play in an orchestra we will retune after an interval.

For what it is worth, violin fingering goes 1 23 where cello with its longer strings has to go 1 34. That fingering will allow you to play a 1 octave scale in tune over any 2 adjacent strings. Where on cello you then introduce use of the 2nd finger between 1 and 3, on violin you move the 2nd finger back closer to 1.

Good luck, keep encouraging her, try claraschu's suggestions!