April Music Thread

[Wafflenose]

We've managed to fill up the March thread, so I give you April's, around 10 hours early. Don't use it all up at once!

The music threads are for learners of ALL ages and stages, including beginners and adult learners.

My kids Goo (11) and Rara (8) break up from school today, thank goodness. Rara is off sick at the moment, in any case, but they both need a break. They did their music exams this week. Goo got a distinction for her Grade 7 Flute, and we are awaiting the results of Rara's Grade 1 Clarinet, plus a couple of my pupils. They will probably come on my birthday - the ABRSM ones often do.

Next term, we have a big community concert at the local high school - all the feeder schools take part. Goo could do Grade 7 Recorder and/ or Grade 4 Piano, but I don't think she wants to. Rara is doing Grade 3 Cello. My Year 6 Recorders have been asked to play in the local Festival gala concert, and I'm sure there will be primary school leavers' performances too.

I think exams are important for many reasons, but I think it's a shame that so many people have the wrong attitude towards becoming a musician, rather than an operator of an instrument.

I read about young children gaining the higher grades at such a young age and teachers issuing one exam book after another, some get to grade 8 and never continue after this as they can't think what to do next.
It's a shame so many give up before they are started.

For some children, parents and teachers, exams are essential and positive in motivating children to practice and it gives an indication to their level and ability at the time.
I suppose it would be difficult to gain music scholarships and bursaries without the said grade.
They show institutions that the child has sustained a duration of study to a certain level and the technique and skills are documented through the progression of grades.

Compare with others in the same class playing at the same time to gauge your child performance. Of course for non-musical ears like myself then my child playing with familiar piece she played in and out still won my heart (and lots of tears that I tried hard to hide). These are moments that all the efforts (and money) are so worth it.

Right, will try to answer Kutik's question and then start reading what I have missed....
Let us have a look what ABRSM recommends (ignore the name, it is all about musical education in the UK, not about making prodigies)
www.amazon.co.uk/Raising-Amazing-Musician-child-music/dp/1860963935/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1491253119&sr=8-1&keywords=raising+an+amazing+musician&tag=mumsnetforum-21

Minimum starting age
Piano -5-6 years as a second instrument for those who made good progress in singing or on a first instrument
Viloin -3-5 years

My personal views....
Piano 6-7 years, violin 4 years+ (assuming we are talking about traditional method, cannot comment on Suzuki)
But I don't mean it as a cut off, I am talking about an ideal age to start (it is just easier to make it a habit if they start early)

I don't think one can never make it as a musician if one starts later, however, let us being realistic, some pathways will be closed for a child starting late. Like I am most certain that if a child starts violin or piano at say 10yo they will never make it to the virtuoso, merely because wrists and fingers flexibility will be very different from a 5yo (yes, I know, we are not really looking into that career but the whole conversation is very theoretical). It is like with languages perhaps-one can learn a language to a native standard but it is virtually impossible to get rid of the accent once child passed certain age (well, this also depend on language group as some languages have similar articulation, but generally speaking). Or look at it this way - 10000 hours rule-they will not have time to make it. Or the way stringchild said-totally agreed.

Of course there are always exceptions (people with hyper mobile joints for example - joking) like gilly's dh but I would rather expect them to be in other instruments. And again we are talking about serious talents here, not just about hard working motivated individuals.

I think it was this book where I read about Suzuki story. He wanted to become a violinist but he started too late and in spite of hours of practice he still could not make it to the performance career. If I remember correctly as it was quite a boring book
www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Nurtured-Love-Classic-Approach-Education-Shinichi-Suzuki/0874875846/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1491254879&sr=1-6&keywords=suzuki&tag=mumsnetforum-21

One can argue that he was made a huge success, and he did, but it was not what he wanted :)

Gilly, for many children (or my child in particular), they are not that passionate or able in music. It doesnt mean they cant have fun or cant learn to play 1 or two instrument or enjoy the musical life. Many times, the fun only comes when they are good and they have to understand that it isnt easy to be good at it(and we aim for a good standard and thats our own choice). Its a lot of hard work and there are many skills required, it isnt always fun.
Then they can (freely) choose to drop it later. I dont think the skills or musicianship will evaporated/disappear. She will definitely appreciate classical music better than someone who cant play at all(us). I wish she will play as long as she can, enjoys it as a hobby as long as she can, however if she wants to drop, we wont be sad, its truly a hobby to us without any ambition.

I think it's the same if not worse for those learning an instrument who don't want to make music a profession.
For them it needs to be fun first and foremost and it's just as important to be a certain level if not moreso than the ones who want to make it their profession.
I just think it's a shame that some children don't get to experience the fun stuff because their early years consisted of exams and no fun.
It just highlights one of the disadvantages of the exam route, their are many advantages.

Couple of more points
I remember long-long time ago, I think before my children started music lessons, which happened 5 years ago, there was a thread where some mum asked advice about her dd. The 16 yo girl was doing grade 8 I think and wanted to become a musician.... The answers were quite ruthless honest

Second point. One of my favorite books about music (god, I feel quite embarrassed now, as every book I mention has a word like 'talent' or 'genius' - you may have a wrong impression on my interests )
www.amazon.co.uk/Teaching-Genius-Dorothy-Making-Musician/dp/1574671200/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1491256378&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=theaching+the+genious&tag=mumsnetforum-21
Anyway, what it says is that if by 18-19yo (hope I remember correctly) young violinist didn't make himself/herself known in music circles this is basically it. No serious career.
Here we go... Reality check....
PS this book is american, it may be very different here

OMG! Stop posting or we'll run out of space! Just joking, I love when this thread is fully active and it gives me something to think about.

First...
Well done minise22 for the exam result!

Regarding the exams: dd's piano teacher told from the first lesson that I should never ask when/if to do an exam. That she isn't a teacher to move from exam to exam just to collect certificates. She said she is the one making the decision when a pupil is ready and it is a three way decision which includes the pupil, if the pupil doesn't agree we won't go for exams.

Dd only did grade 1, 3 and now 5 on piano and she did grade 1 and now 3 on clarinet. She doesn't move from grades book to graded book, she plays a lot of repertoire between exams before opening a graded book. We have a big collection of books for piano and expanding it for clarinet also.

Why exams? Because dd (and I) likes to measure herself, to get a sense of achievement. She does an exam a year on piano and I assume it will be the same on clarinet, she doesn't play for exam but takes an exam for her playing if that makes sense. Once a year she'll stop her "fun pieces" to learn the exam ones and get a sense of achievement knowing how far she got.

It's weird because there seems to be a cycle: once a year she plays three pieces to death for about 3 months. I do feel it sucks the fun out of it by the time the exam happens. After the exam it feels like spring (even if it may be November) new pieces come to life, a lot of learning and enthusiasm. As she moves through various repertoire you can see the enthusiasm dying of right about the time when the teacher is suggesting another grade (7-8 months after the exam). As soon as the exam pieces are introduced dd suddenly works harder than ever as she finds new motivation. And then we're back to the beginning. It works for us, it keeps her interested.

*dying off

Only are you talking about a job/ career as a musician or a famous stand out musician?

There was a lad of 16 when dd was at her county orchestra years ago, violin player only started at 14 and now plays in leading orchestra. If you know what area with live you will guess the orchestra.
He went through their youth orch and was offered a place after audition.

He will stay in that orch for a while, maybe for years or could move on.
He'll gain some teaching as it doesn't pay hugely unless you are a section leader or the leader
He may be the exception to the rule but it clearly shows it's possible.

Reading now...
Trumpet jazz cafe sounds fab, could you please ask your ds to employ my dd there? :)

Motivation thing....
Unfortunately it is not all that simple with motivation... I read some biographies and it seems like 11-13 is the average age for some kids to 'grow up'. There is a thing called executive functioning and some children just cannot self motivate, they have to be helped pushed.

Loose, how sweet! I just imagined that picture-you ds is helping you....

drummers what a busy life!

gilly but this is what I said-there always be some outstanding talents, but this is an exceptuon not a rule. Our teacher is the same apart from he started school lessons at 7 and didn't have private teaching till about 13. I think it takes more than just hard work to achieve. However, there are few things to consider-these people may not be good at anything else. They may not be happy with how things ended up (yes, they are low paid, have to travel a lot, this may affect private life too). They most likely will ask thrmselves-what if I started earlier? And being really talented but late starters it is I think unavoidable tbat they will compare themselves with someone less talented but who started earlier.
I guess I am trying to say-it is far from being happy end... To me anyway.....

No, I don't talk about famous musicians, but imagine-there are plenty of local orchestras, you don't need to be an international star to
play a solo with a local orchestra, but quite a few, professional (!!!) musicians will end up, say, as a second violin in a local orchestra. Plus 98% time of teaching. I mean this is a reality for most of musicians probably....

Alexandre how nicely you put it about community Waffle started....

Well done to mini se22!

trumpet unlike you I don't associate these threads with Waffle but rather with Rara and Goo-as every thread starts with an update on them :)))

only, thank you for taking time to answer my question! Very interesting to see some good collections in your bookshelf!

Green, sorry I am not very informative about vibrato. If I remember anything again I will post here. Meanwhile, I hope you manage to talk to your teacher as she/he would know more personal needs.

drummers well done to your DS!

I personally think the starting age is an achievement competition only in the early stages. So a dc started piano at 5 and is grade 6 by 10. Another started at 8 and it's only grade 2 or 3 at 10. They both apply for a place at a music school and the one starting at 5 will most likely be offered a place as he's more advanced.

Let's pretend though that none of them is applying to a music school but they continue with private music lessons.

By the age of 16-18 though both dcs would have finished their grades and provided they got the same level of music education quality they will most probably be able to play at the same difficulty level. They will have each developed their own style and when they both apply to a conservatoire they have equal chances, the starting age will be a small and unimportant detail.

I went to bed early, and found this thread very much longer by the time I got up. Wow!

Equally, Fleur, a 5 year old starter and an 8 year old starter might well be the same level by age 10, or at least in my experience. Many children of average ability progress really slowly at 5-6, and I find that the second year of piano is so difficult that many drop out by 8. Goo did six months of piano with me when she was tiny, then balked at the sight of anything around Grade 1 standard. She simply didn't have the resilience to try. She started piano lessons at 10.5 and a year on, she is Grade 4.

Fleurdelise，I think the music school more care about DC's potential, not grade level. My DD took the audition when she started 1 to 1 violin lessons only 20 months. I don't think her level is higher than DC who start at age 4 and has learned violin for 4 years. But she got in. If they take DC only according to the level, she should have any chance to get in.

But what is the message for "normal" children. At my dc primary school no one has left in the last 10 years with anything more than grade 4 ( a small handful, in 10 years, not per year).
I don't think it would matter for the majority of people (all those that don't participate in this thread whether they start at 4, or 14 or 40. It nearly gives the impression that those who started at 14, that they are missing out just because they did not start at 4 years old.

I agree with Waffle - dd was an incredibly slow starter on cello; in fact not sure anything went in at all until she hit 7/8 and then she 'got' it. Sh is now "ahead" of other early starters who were G5 at 7/8. We have always been told there is a real levelling out in the late teen yrs. for me what really shows is extreme talent - which is sometimes attributed to an early start but is actually the result of innate passion and talent.

I agree, the scenario I decribed above was with regards to the requirements of a specialist music school, Purcell for example states a level of equivalent to grade 6 piano to get in at age 10. True, a pupil that started at 4 or 5 or even 6 could be that level. Starting at 10 you would think his musical career has no chance at that point in time (according to Purcell).

6 or 8 years later when they are 16-18 I believe the starting point is void. Take Goo for example who started piano again at 10 and dd who started at 6, I don't believe for a second that in 6 years time dd would have an advantage because of an earlier start if both chose to have a career in music. That is what I was trying to say.

I also think that the majority of dcs in real life and on this thread also will not chose a career in music, but being able to play an instrument is a life skill which should hopefully bring them years of enjoyment.

While I am proud of dd's achievements and I know that finishing primary around grade 5-7 on two instruments if the progress doesn't slow down is pretty impressive, I also know that when she's 18-20 regardless of her career choices nobody will actually care what age she took grade 5/6/7/8. They are great achievements at that point in time but somehow meaningless years later.

Very similar with the conversations you hear around when dcs started to read/write/know their times tables, how many times have you been asked what age did you start reading? Or what age did you know your times tables?

Unless you are Einstein of course and then Wikipedia will state an early achievement in your biography. But how many Einsteins or Mozarts are there?

Excellent news se22