Musical devices-pros and cons

[Worriedandlost]

Friend of mine was using this device with her dc
www.amazon.co.uk/Buddies-Violin-Viola-Bright-BHBBB/dp/B002QAWNDE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1432058980&sr=8-3&keywords=bow+buddy
When I asked about it my dd's violin teacher she was very adamant that dd should not use anything of that kind.

Last week I finally gave up and bought it. As well as this one which arrived today
www.amazon.co.uk/Bowzo-Violin-Straight-Bow-Practice-x/dp/B00DBWZ7O8/ref=pd_sim_ce_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0E53TV0VQ2PZ3RAQKCCN

And after a practice with a straight bow thing, I am sitting and thinking now-why I wasted all this time and did not buy something like that in a first place? She still needs to learn to play properly without using all these devices but at least we can avoid constant nagging and my frustration.

Did anyone use things like that? What is your opinion and experience?

Find a good Suzuki teacher - they will teach the correct technique from the beginning.

Worried, why are you standing over your DD nagging her about her technique? You seem very concerned with her progress too. This could backfire (sounds like it already is, given the tantruming). You need to back off and let her try on her own. Yes, parents need to make sure their kids practise, and remind them to practise what the teacher has told them to, then they need to leave them alone.

I am a music teacher, and it is very difficult not to hover over my DS when he's practising piano, pointing out poor technique, but it doesn't help him. He just gets stroppy and it becomes a negative experience. If he asks me for advice, I give it to him, but he usually wants me out of the way. Leave the advice to the teacher, please.

I do watch my children practise, but it generally is to remind them what the teachers say they have to do. They do go in a huff when the going gets tough, but so far they (and I) have not given up yet. I also tell them that not every practice session is going to be perfect. You just do your best. If you don't get there on Monday do it again on Tuesday. No big deal.

I think a lot of playing is an exercise of will. You can have devices to help you play something right, or you can exercise your will power, which is never easy, especially for younger children. It is all in the will, Barenboim said that Rubenstein (or someone) said that to him.

Rather than just practice with these devices, could you use it to have your DD experience what a straight boss and/or correct bow hold feels like, and then take it off and have her try replicate that feeling without the device?
Perhaps doing it on something easy like a scale or easy piece?

Can you ask the teacher if there are any exercises that your DD can do to improve bow hold or straighten bow?

DD1 got into bad habit of not bending her pinky on bow hold. Teacher had her make a good bow hold shape, then lift bow up and down (from stomach to over her head) and side to side (all the way out, like opening and closing a door) several times before putting bow on violin. Each time checking that bow hold remain correct. DD made significant improvement after just one week.

We do Suzuki method, and our teacher has games or exercises to correct many bad habits, and for teaching new techniques.

pickledsiblings I think it is a bit too late for Suzuki now. Beside our teacher does Suzuki too, surprisingly.

Wellthatsit, friend's dd practices exactly like you suggested, two years on, she is still nowhere close to her grade 1 (I know, it is not about exams, etc, but exams are some sort of benchmark). My dd is too young and disorganised to let her practice on her own.

MomOfTwoGirls2, I asked a number of times, and the answer was- it is ok, or, she is still too small. I also have a feeling, from one particular episode, that she just know how to do something correctly, and can show it, rather than she knows the theory behind it, how muscles work, why something is done certain way and what is rationale behind it. Which makes me wonder, does conservatoire education covers this aspect at all?

worried

As you mention conservatoire, the main thing they look for is the ability to be taught. Everything else can be worked on and if dc haven't got this they aren't interested.
People seem to think they look for some grand level of achievement or child prodigy, obviously they have a certain level in mind, but it isn't necessarily as high as people make out and grades make no difference at all.
Just thought I'd clear that one up.
Ime a certain amount of biology is taught alongside playing the instrument and it does tend to improve technique along with a good practice routine.

morethanpotatoprints, sorry, I meant conservatoire in respect of dd's teacher, not dd. My worry is that everybody is thinking the teacher knows best, but my point is - not necessarily.
Dd had few piano teachers and they had very different ideas how to teach her, depending on their edication and experience, this taught me not to trust teachers absolutely :)

Sorry worried, completely lost the thread there.

I have been thinking about your dilemna and had started to question my previous posts before your last post iyswim.

I stand by the point of having complete faith and trust in your teacher otherwise the whole situation is futile.

However, I agree not all teachers are good and some can be good but not necessarily for you.

What do you like about the teacher? You said she/he was a good teacher? In what way? What would you change and why?

I think if you ask these questions you'll begin to see the answer to your problems. my dd had several teachers before we found the right ones. Not for the same instrument

You can pm me if you like. I'm not an authority but have picked up so much over the years and know lots about dh's teaching too.
I have also listened to various family friends and dh's colleagues who teach in all the conservatoires. It's amazing what you pick up as a mere spectator

morethanpotatoprints don't worry, your answers are all context related, so don't question them :) Just to clarify - when I was talking about proud mummy sitting in the first row, it was a joke :)

I feel that teacher's teaching style is good for dd, she is doing what I would do. I am only concerned about technical aspect, but it does not mean that teacher is not good at it, it can be general practice here, it can be me or it can be dd. Can be me actually, after reading all the replies

Thank you for offering me to pm, can I save this offer for later please :)? I am more or less clear at the moment, but I may need some advice in few months time

I still don't hold the bow "properly", except when demonstrating to beginners, which involves a lot of pencils and the bow creature who has one floppy and one point year, often with my left hand (I mirror things sometimes). There is no proper bowhold - you can't so flying spiccato with the same hold as martele. There are bad things - concave thumb, pinky far away from other fingers, tension and lack of flexibility, wrist incorrectly positioned. The key is lack of tension and good alignment. After that, go with what works.

Fwiw my chin only goes on the fiddle when I'm shifting or playing very high. This, for me, is effective in eliminating the tension I used to create when I felt I had to squeeeeeeeeze the violin between chin and shoulder, it is a little unorthodox in classical circles but normal for early and folk. For me, that's important, since I don't like pain.

Any time worried

JulieMichelleRobinson, thank you for your insight, it is very appreciated!

Worriedandlost,

I was 17 when my technique got totally picked apart and reconstructed in four lessons and lots of practise (I had to fly to England for those lessons). The teacher I had then was top-class, but he made a very valid point to me: that everyone's body is different, that this was a way of playing but he could only demonstrate the concept and the sound and expected me to put the work in and figure out how to reproduce it for myself. He explained things like how changing the contact point, speed, pressure and angle of the bow changes the tone you produce, for example, but expected me to go practise until I could consistently get the particular sound I wanted. I learnt that there are different sorts of vibrato, that the width and speed can be controlled and that doing this changes the sound you produce. And so on. But it was always "this is a way of doing things; it works for me."

I'm now in my 30s. I probably don't play as well now as I did then, technically, but if I wanted to, applied myself and really practised, I could be a lot better even without an external teacher - because I understand more completely what I am trying to do and the physics involved.

The chin thing - I had shockingly bad technique for a while, and used to squeeze the violin and bow with a lot of tension. It caused me real pain at one point and I still have vestiges of those problems. Most children know that they don't need to squeeze, but I was paranoid about dropping the instrument, I guess. Because of that, learning to play without my chin on the violin at all has been really liberating, reduced my tension all-round and means that now even when I do play chin-on (most later music, which requires shifting/vibrato), I don't do the nasty squeezing thing that I did in my early teens.

OP - either trust your teacher or move on. Please don't carry on with a teacher you don't trust.

Not all teachers suit all pupils, and vice versa too.

Please don't undermine the teacher though, that is just not nice. Just change teacher.

JulieMichelleRobinson thanks again for sharing your experience and thoughts. Dh, who is amateur violinist and taught himself playing through books and videos, basically says the same, but of course he is not professional therefore I always doubt his words! :) Overall I am glad we had this discussion, I realise now that it is a common problem and not just dd's and therefore I should not worry to much about it for some time.

1805, do you really think that I should change the teacher of three years over the minor disagreement on using some violin gadgets? What explanations I am to give to her and to a prospective teacher?
Really good read on a subject of teaching www.amazon.co.uk/Teaching-Genius-Dorothy-Making-Musician/dp/1574671200/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1433317317&sr=8-1&keywords=teaching+genius

I think 1805's point is valid...

If you start doing things like that, against the teacher's advice, you are basically saying you know better than the teacher. That not only creates a bad relationship between you and the teacher, it undermines the teacher's authority with your child. So, the way I see it, there are two options:

1. Continue with the same teacher, trusting that he/she knows what he/she is talking about, and not using additional 'devices' in home practice.
2. Find a teacher who uses gadgets and swap to him/her.

I tend not to fuss too much with bowhold to begin with, concentrating on not gripping tight and on getting the bow going nice and straight, producing a good sound. The right way is what works ;-)

Actually, the sensible thing is to have a conversation with the teacher, asking what can be done to help DD's bowhold, since you know it's not correct at present. While I don't use devices for playing, I'm all in favour of practising with pencils, doing bowhold games and things like that...

www.musicinpractice.com/36-beginner-bow-hold-games/

(not affiliated!)

I raised this question for few times and the teacher's response was - she is still too young. Whilst I agree, it does not mean that I should not try to do something about it if it worries me too much. In a way, reading this book also means undermining teacher, isn't it? Why would you, if a teacher tells you what to do anyway?
www.amazon.co.uk/Violin-Six-Lessons-Yehudi-Menuhin/dp/0571100384/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1433333659&sr=1-1&keywords=menuhin+6

Talking about teachers all together, I don't know where you guys live, I live on a border of two counties. Our teacher has been here for a long time and knows literally every musician around (as a matter of fact I know quite a few!). Same question-what I am to say to the current teacher and to a prospective teachers? Then, I already changed a number of teachers + auditioned with quite a few - it is a timely, costly and not very pleasant process, with no guarantee of finding a suitable one.

It is basically easier said than done.

Saying that I am very happy with our current teacher and have no intention to change her at all unless there is a complete change of circumstances (she refuses to teach dd/we move out of area). There are things I don' t like about her, but even by best friend irritates me sometime, don't think it is good enough reason to move to someone else :)

Honestly guys, with all my respect, it is too strong reaction out of such a trifle :)

JulieMichelleRobinson Thanks for the link on a book btw!

Agree - trust teacher or move on.
Also if she is too young to practice independently then she is too young for grade 3.
A mirror and a pencil are the best practice tools.
As she grows and matures her limbs, muscles, fingers and strength will change. These factors all necessitate relearning technique.
I teach my own DC rather than have disagreements with a teacher. This has its own pitfalls and I worry about pushing too hard or over supervising. You sound more invested as an interested parent than I am as a teaching parent.

howabout I am not deciding on taking exams, teacher does. Do you reckon I should advise teacher that dd is too young for grade 3?

It does not matter that she had distinctions for her gr1 and gr2 before, both at 6 yo? If cannot practice herself, than she is too young and not ready for gr 3, full stop. Perhaps it is good idea to stop lessons all together, till she is older?

I think I should stop here as I don't like going into further speculation.

Thanks all for advice.

Sorry, I perhaps was more blunt than I intended. Grade 6 - 8 are the levels for preparation for a conservatoire environment and most DC do these at secondary age having already passed grade 5 music theory and matured with age. I just don't see the rush to progress through grades at the expense of fun and enjoyment and letting a child learn at their own pace a bit.
The violin is an exercise in frustration even for the most talented and enthusiastic and it can take time to learn to love its discipline was all I was getting at.