Jazz piano

[Worriedandlost]

Hi all
I have been reading "Piano ABRSM Grade 1 Exam - Other Parents opinion" and there was a mentioning jazz examination. Would anyone give a bit more insight information please? What is the best age to start, is it usually a separate qualification or it is ok to combine with classical piano, pros and cons, who would suit it the most, etc. Many thanks for your replies!

LCM jazz piano works as a stand-alone and they have Step exams before grade one, just as for classical. Their jazz exams go all the way up to grade 8, with DVD performance assessments an option (not nationally recognised quals, though the grades are). You could start LCM jazz with a young beginner, the Step exams use John Thompson's FIrst Blues and Boogie, which contains some grade 1-3 repertoire too.

ABRSM jazz seems to work a bit differently, because to improvíse at the level required for grade one jazz I'd be expecting a grade 2-3 level in classical. This might be because I'd be teaching it to a student who had learnt the classical way, though. The ABRSM grade 5 jazz is an acceptable theory substitute. Grade 5 is the highest exam currently offered. I would think of this as a theory alternative for an older piano student rather than it's own thing, just because there are no easy-to-use materials.

Trinity offer jazz wind/brass but not currently keys. They do include a lot of jazzy repertoire in the regular piano syllabus, but don't assess things like improv. or comping skills.

In both cases I don't see why it couldn't be taught simultaneously, but I wouldn't be focussing on two sets of exams in one weekly lesson. I mix and match repertoire, but for exams I would probably alternate or require separate lessons for classical and jazz. I like the way jazz enhances understanding of harmony and technique is the same, of course.

Also... Not every teacher would feel comfortable teaching it, I guess. I'm a decent jazz fiddler (and trad, gypsy jazz, gypsy punk...) but advanced jazz improv on piano is another matter. Teaching grade eight jazz would be... Interesting.

Hi -
I've just looked back on some of your previous music queries, and I know you have children involved in piano and violin.

Julie has given you the Professional, very comprehensive answer.

I was wondering which of your children is considering jazz, their age, and present standard?

I taught 'informal' music in primary schools for twenty years, including keyboard, recorder and percussion. Children were encouraged to make up their own tunes, or to vary or embellish pieces we were doing. Young children are often reluctant to 'compose' fearing they might 'get it wrong', when anything they create at this stage is valid, if they enjoy it and it gives them a certain amount of satisfaction.

Obviously, as playing experience and knowledge advances, the rules of harmony and improvisation start to come in; but, as musicians have always shown, rules are meant to be broken!

Rules are not meant to be broken: every time you write a parallel fifth, God kills a kitten.

Unless you're doing thirteenth century pastiche.

Still waiting for a jazz fiddle syllabus - I have materials for teaching...

Different instrument but dd (9) has started jazz lessons this term - they are separate (different teacher) from her 'normal' one, and are focusing on improv and jazz technique and theory. She is a very solid g3/4 on this instrument in the classical exams (she is not follwomg jazz absrm syllabus but rather a non exam based jazz syllabus which has started at around g3 level). Her main teacher is happy that it will all fit alongside each other. She started playing in a jazz group when she was g1 on non-jazz, without difficulties. She has also started playing a bit of Irish folk and improv on her (more advanced) cello - again different teacher, and no problems at all.

JulieMichelleRobinson thank you sooo much for your reply, some bits were missing from what I read and it all became clearer now

Ferguson this is right, one of my dc is doing music, she is doing grade 3 on both instruments this year. She was trying to make her own tunes quite soon after she started her lessons, she does it less frequently now (sometimes I think that formal lessons kill her creativity :(), so I would anticipate that she feels comfortable with it. My main concern that it is too much music from an early age, on the other hand she has more time now than she will when she is older, and I would like to see if it suits her, but it is quite major thing to do, so still cannot decide.

Musicmom1 thanks for insider information, this is important too.

Actually for a fiddler the folk might pose more of an issue - it requires rather different bowing styles etc. Although, well, once you can control the thing it's six of one half a doze of the other, and twiddles are just twiddles. :D

OP - provided that she is doing well in all the academic subjects, and in PE, games, drama etc, I don't think it could be 'too much music', as long as she sets the pace and the agenda; in other words, you don't expect too much of her in either the Classical field, or the Jazz.

A VERY long ago, Classical teachers would not entertain their students being involved in jazz, but as in most areas of life, things that were once taboo have become commonplace in the modern world.

I often compare the teaching of Music Theory to the way Maths is still sometimes taught: pupils are told WHAT to do, to achieve a particular result, but are not helped to UNDERSTAND the reasoning behind it.

Jazz can help with not being 'afraid' of Theory, but it won't necessarily clarify all the 'ins and outs' of it, at least not without many years of advanced study.

Also, I think, Jazz can help musicians to 'relax' once freed from the more rigid world of the Classical repertoire.

Ferguson thanks for your opinion, this what I read about it too.
Yes, she is doing well in academic subjects, and this is why I think it is probably better to do it now, before she is at secondary and she has to work harder.
What I mean by too much music is that teachers are quite adamant about practicing etc and we do have too much music in out lives! She is already thinking that she must be a musician when she is grown up (and she must not of course!). Very hard decision....
They are doing grade two theory with one of her teachers, without taking exams, she did past papers grade 1 theory at home, so I would assume that will not be a problem too...

My experience is that learning jazz techniques seems to help with really understanding how music works in a practical and intuitive way, and also seems to encourage creativity in a way that a purely classical training often doesn't. My DD's guitar teacher is a very accomplished semi-pro jazz musician who teaches a mix of styles with lots of jazz. As a result ever since she was a beginner DD has spent more time writing music than playing pieces. She started playing piano last year and initially she just played it just like a jazz guitarist - lots of chords with improvisation around the chord shapes. She only started to learn to play actual pieces later (and progress was rapid because she was already comfortable with finding her way around the keyboard).

She has started formal theory classes this year and you can definitely see the benefit of a bit of jazz training here too - she was behind with reading musical notation but ahead of students who had done several years of theory when it came to intervals, chords, transposition etc.

So thumbs up to learning some jazz - it will definitely complement your DD's other lessons.

Not piano but DD1 (she's 10) plays the trumpet and has always preferred jazz to other styles of music so the peripatetic brass teacher has started her on the ABRSM jazz syllabus for grade 3. The plan is to work on the traditional G5 syllabus at the same time (she did G4 in March) as he feels it makes for a more rounded player. One lesson in (she has lessons at school) and she's full of the joys of mixolydian scales and improvisation. Long may it last!

I think once you can improvise to a decent standard, have some half decent licks and can play freely with real jazz rhythm then classical is easy.

Too many people think that impro is just running up and down in a jazzy way playing what you like. The theory and level of understanding required is immense and after many years of study you may be scratching the surface.

If you can find one a jazz musician would probably be much better than a teacher.

I agree with everything that's been said, wholeheartedly. I've been doing jazz piano for a while (as an adult), and I've finally achieved Grade 8 Lcm plus Popular Music theory (also Lcm) at grade 8.

I can honestly say that Jazz Piano has changed my life as a budding musician. I feel I am more of a "musician" now and those questions which dogged me as a classical pianist have been answered. It's like a light going on!

If anyone hasn't already said it, she really needs to listen to jazz to get the feel and sound of it. My personal favourite "go to"listening was Miles Davis' A Kind of Blue.

It's a whole new world!

Thanks for all the replies! Will give couple of more weeks to this thought and if it is not gone away, then try :)
Thanks for the recommendation of music, good idea to start listening, already found the cd on amazon, perhaps someone else could recommend some other good jazz cds, as unfrotunately I am not very familiar with this type of music.

I'd give the CDs a miss and go to youtube first. Where to begin? For piano, look for:

George Shearing
Oscar Peterson
Errol Garner
Dave Brubeck
Bill Evans.....etc.

Then more contemporary players like Keith Jarrett, Herbie Hancock, Jamie Cullum, Brad Mehldau, Gwilym Simcock, Jason Rebello etc.

For general listening, listen to artists like Nina Simone, Billie Holiday, Sarah Vaughan. For a treat, watch Art Tatum playing Tiger Rag! Then there's Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong etc. Also listen to the better known "jazz" tunes like Georgia, Misty, Night and Day (plus anything by Cole Porter), Autumn Leaves, Satin Doll, Shadow of your Smile etc.

In the Abrsm syllabus, the Blues features heavily, so take a listen to CJam Blues, Barrelhouse Blues, Watermelon Man.

Happy listening

ageingdisgracefully wow! Thank you!

Wal - this is getting quite interesting!

I will PM you in a few days, but meanwhile - Does DD sing? If she does I'll add a couple of tracks she can HUM along to.

In the first sample, listen to the SPACES as much as the music; notice the four guitar arpeggios (and spot the 'odd one out'); observe the SPARSE piano, and the way the saxes - particularly the baritone - rise and fall:

In the second piece, don't try to hum what the piano is doing, but rather HUM occasional long lines that will BLEND IN (harmonize) with the piano in some way. (You can probably also dance to it.)

Thank you Ferguson