Son losing motivation. Do we need a new teacher?

[Mumof2andaZoo]

My son has been with his piano teacher since he was 5 (11 now). He passed grade 1 piano with a distinction 2 years ago. He also does singing with the same teacher and has got distinctions at grades 2 and 3 in the meantime. After grade 1 DS worked through several grade 2 piano pieces, but because of timing, we all decided to skip the exam and move towards grade 3. The teacher got in touch with me in January to say he was concerned at the lack of practice and progress. He wanted DS to sit the exam this spring session but he wasn't ready. DS has a practice book, so what he needs to concentrate on is written down for him.

DS is still not really practising. His school teachers always tell me how talented he is so it's really frustrating. Another mother at school has given me the number of another teacher and a few people have told me that this teacher is really good and gets them through the grades really quickly. A few people have commented that after this amount of time he should be much higher than grade 3.

I'm not musical at all, so was just wondering what others with more experience thought. Would a new teacher help? DS says he doesn't want to change teachers or stop lessons and as he's like an only child (sister is in her twenties) and it's the only activity he does I don't want him to stop.

Any advice would be appreciated.

This is a bit bullet pointy, sorry. Am responding whilst bf:

*.Getting through the grades quickly is not necessarily a good thing. Just churning through the grades would mean students are not necessarily developing good technique and they certainly wouldn't have the time to explore different repertoire - which to me is very important in enjoying piano, in learning about piano and in developing as a pianist.

• Having said that the grade system can provide a nice structure and motivation for students.

• The lack of progress made by your son sounds as if it might be more about his lack of practice than the teacher. I suppose you might be feeling that he WOULD practise if the teacher was any good. I can assure you there so many outstanding teachers out there who still have students who don't practise.

• From your op it looks as if the teacher raised this issue, which would suggest they ARE good. Also they have been suggesting jumping grade 2 and pushing for grade 3 so they sound just as keen to get your son through the grades as this other teacher.

• Don't compare grade progress with other students! There is no set speed of progress or age at which a student should be grade X.

• Can you ask your son why he is not practising? If he's 11 does this change correspond with him starting senior school and all the extra homework, activities and social stuff that goes along with that? Perhaps your son still wants to play but doesn't want to practise?

• If your son doesn't want to change teacher then I would be very loathe to do that. The student teacher relationship is such an important part of how a student makes progress.

• I would talk to the teacher yourself about this. Try to find some ideas together to encourage and motivate your son.

• When you talk to the teacher it may be that there are things you can do to help your son practise at home. Students that have parents who help and support their practice tend to do better than those with parents who are not involved.

I'm sorry if that's all a bit disjointed! In summary I would NOT rush to change teacher. I would work with son and teacher to find out why DS isn't practising and to find ways to change this. Also do not focus on grade progress. It's not the be all... If your son was practising avidly and still not making progress or if he just didn't like his teacher (character clash etc) THEN I would consider changing teachers.

I haven't got much experience (Dd only just taken grade 1 exam yesterday) but I would personally stay away from teachers who take kids through grades really quickly. Unless this is your aim, a bunch of certificates.

Saying that I do think that after 5 years he could have been a higher grade but that is only if the practice is done and the effort put in. The teacher cannot have any input in the practice side of things.

I have been told that getting to grade 1 takes longer, between 1 and a half to two years, even more if the child has started at an young age. After that it is pretty much a grade every year providing the effort and practice is put in.

So not sure if the problem is with the teacher or the lack of practice. You could change the teacher but without the practice the progress will not change.

Changing teachers will make no difference if he doesn't practice!

You and his teacher need to talk to your son about what he wants to get out of his lessons, what he enjoys, what he wants to do more of. It sounds to me as if an exam focus is completely irrelevant in this situation - a student who is not ready for grade 3 after 5-6 heart plainly isn't going to be a serious concert pianist. But he may well have other musical aptitudes that he and the teacher could explore.

My 13 year old daughter plays piano too - she'll never have the technical standard required to make a serious classical musician (started too late and doesn't practice enough) but she has other abilities like composing, arranging and improvising where she is streets ahead of most (she thinks nothing of putting on her headphones, listening to a piece of music and working out a piano arrangement by ear, without a score). Maybe your son would enjoy improvising, or playing different music styles, or learning some keyboard or recording skills?

• Obviously that should read "5-6 years" (grr to autocorrect!)

I would agree it is not necessarily the teacher, unless you feel that a different approach would motivate him.

I would never use a teacher 'to get them through the grades 'quickly'. However, form my own experience I would probably expect a higher standard (not necessarily having done the grades) after six years of lessons assuming some effective practice.

This might sound odd, but are you sure piano is the right instrument for him? Have you considered an orchestra instrument instead/as well?

Piano is very solitary, playing an ensemble instrument and getting involved in an ensemble can be much more motivating.

Thanks for the replies.

He does play violin at school and is doing grade 2 in the summer. He did play with the local training orchestra but decided to give that up a while ago.

I don't get to see the teacher any more because of getting home later from work, but I think I may need to go and see him to discuss where we go from here.

DS won't give me a proper answer when I ask him about his reluctance to practise, and not ever having learnt an instrument myself I do find it difficult to understand how he feels. He does play the piano almost every day, but I'm not sure if he's practising what he's been set or just playing what he enjoys playing. I think it's probably the latter. The teacher told me ages ago that once a week I should read through his practice notes for the week and sit with him while he does his practice, which I did start doing, but have to admit it tailed off after a few weeks (housework, cooking tea etc.).

I agree with others - maybe ask your ds why he doesn't like practicing. I suspect he might say he's bored, which could be something to do with only practicing the exam pieces and he's lost motivation and is stuck in a bit of a rut.

Perhaps you could see if he would like to have a trial lesson with the other teacher to see how he gets on? They might be just the person to re-kindle his enthusiasm.

Try him on some different instruments, he might be a wind player? DD thought she was strings, did violin to Grade 2, then Cello, but doesn't really enjoy it. But sax is her thing.

Find out what he plays when he's playing for pleasure.

if he's playing every day and has some aptitude, he may not be "ready for grade 3" in terms of being able to play the pieces and the scales - but he might be a better pianist than you (or the teacher) think!

Maybe he'd do better with harder pieces (some students relish a challenge) or different styles?

Is he exploring music outside the grade syllabus? Does he prefer the jazzy pieces and would a change of direction be beneficial e.g. looking at jazz exams and exploring some improvisation; or looking at Rockschool or the Trinity Rock and Pop syllabus instead? My students who are like a mix of classical and more modern pieces tend to go for Trinity exams as they have a more up to date approach than ABRSM. Not all kids are that keen on plodding through the ABRSM syllabus which can, in all honesty, be a bit dull at times.

For music outside of exam pieces ask if he can try out some Elissa Milne, Ben Crosland, Pam Wedgewood or Elena Cobb as they write music which is fun to play and appeals more to some students than Mozart or Bach.

As far as progress goes, you say he started at 5 years - in my experience the younger pupils start, the longer they take to get to grade 1 level. If an 11 year old had started and was only playing at grade 3 level after 5-6 years then you might have cause for concern. Unless you have a particularly motivated student, who also has knowledgeable and involved parents, starting at 5 years old is quite a long and slow process so grade 3 by the end of primary school is quite reasonable.

Supervising practice is hard - I struggle to supervise my daughter's trumpet practice as I teach until 7, then have dinner/household chores etc but if you could take a look through his notes and just check he's doing at least some of what he should be it would be helpful. Students who don't practice what they should are often defensive in lessons and it leads to a downwards spiral as lessons become like groundhog day for teacher and student!

You've had some good responses already. If it were me I'd try to get to the bottom of why he's not wanting to practise. If he's recently moved to senior school, sings and plays the violin it might be time pressure. Does he play for pleasure or is it a chore for him? It might be that this is the wrong instrument for him at this time, if he's not enjoying it then a change of teacher may not change that. If he isn't enjoying it then I'd give a term's notice and stop the lessons, I know he says that he doesn't want that but if he's not demonstrating some commitment then what's the point of continuing?

The fact that he plays most days is very positive btw. If you do something regularly you WILL improve even if you're not working on the things you "should" be doing. Dd almost never practices her set guitar pieces (she'll occasionally work on a technical study, or a jazz chord sequence but that's all) - however she plays every day without fail, and after a period last summer when her technical ability seemed to have plateaued, she has since taken off again.

I am not sure much action is required, he wants to continue his lessons, he practices regularly... Maybe he can ask his teacher for a particular piece/style if music he likes.

Fwiw, my DS is 12 and "only" on grade 3 now, after 6 years. He enjoys it though, plays a fair few pieces that are not "grade material", like last year shen he had hus heart set on learning to play "let it go".

I know lots of parents and teachers who want the kids to go throughthe grades as quickly as possible, for whatever reason (ucas points, scholarships, boasting or just general conpetitiveness) but that is not really "us".

I'd go with yourDC's view.

Piano is a difficult instrument and takes more time than other instruments, IME. Having said that, this progress is very slow. Not sure how long he's been taking singing lessons for, but if a similar amount of time then he is making very slow progress with that too. I would have a good chat with the teacher and try to work out what is going wrong. A change to a more inspiring teacher might help. But at the end of the day, some children won't put much practice in, and they are unlikely to get anywhere with music, especially if they don't happen to be very musically talented. I would focus on an orchestral instrument, and insist that he play with a group. Playing an easier instrument (eg clarinet) will speed up his progress and make playing in a group more rewarding.

I imagine he's found the step from grade 2 to 3 quite difficult - he may have become put off by mention of the exam as well! I would talk to the teacher and see if it's possible to cut exam-related practice down to specific bite-sized sections, but that have to be done little and often, and offer the incentive of a non-exam piece to work on alongside it.
Having said that, I am struggling through grade 3 myself and the ABRSM syllabus at the moment really isn't that child-friendly. It has pieces that I enjoy - but I'm old! My piano teacher and I were struck by the theme of gloom that seems to pervade it - but to be fair I haven't looked at the other exam pieces that aren't in the ABRSM book and they may be much more upbeat! Who chose the exam pieces - your son or the teacher? It's important for the student to have a say.
Can I suggest two things that have worked for DS2? One is that I keep an eye on what he's actually practising, while still encouraging him to play for fun. The other is that I keep in touch with the teacher and if either of us has concerns we talk on the phone. It has been a really positive experience!

Shelling - he's played a fair bit of Elissa Milne and Pam Wedgewood, (not sure about the other two - the names don't ring a bell), the teacher recommended getting some of their books, and he's enjoyed playing them.

Whereupon -He's been doing singing for 2 years. Can you explain why he's making slow progress? I'm getting lots of mixed opinions on here and in RL about where he should be, so if a teacher could explain I would be really grateful.

BTW, he's still in primary - year 6.

Whereupon, I meant why you think this is slow progress, not why he in particular is slow sorry.

He's doing LCM exams by the way. He started on the pieces last September, and chose them himself. In January, when the teacher was considering entering him for the exam, he was still a way behind where the teacher wanted him to be. He gave him until the end of January to pick his socks up and then changed the pieces (DS's choice again) with a view to entering for the summer session.

Singing exams are ABRSM.

Mumof2 - according to recent surveys amongst piano teachers the average time to get to grade 1 is 2 years. That's an average so some are quicker, others much slower, especially if they start at a younger age. Typically my students are around grade 2 to 3 at year 6 regardless of how long they've been playing, simply because the timescales are reduced the older the child is when starting. BTW I'm not a huge fan of the exam system as I find it slows downs progress in the early years - some of my students will sit 1 or 2 early grade exams if they want to, then nothing until grade 5.

Ben Crosland is a contemporary composer - his work is currently featuring on the Trinity 2014-2015 syllabus and this is a link to some pieces of about the right level for your son

Elena Cobb is another newish composer/teacher who has a range of sheet music you can download - her website is here I use Higgledy Piggledy Jazz for introducing improvisation skills, also basic chording so students can learn to play from a lead sheet (vocal line plus chords).

Singing is a completely different kettle of fish to playing piano. If you can hold a tune, have a good memory and are blessed with good vocal chords, then singing exams are SO much easier than instrumental. I'm saying this from the POV of someone who has diploma/degree level in 2 instruments and also grade 8 singing.

Interesting that your son is doing LCM. I've not used them as I've never been overly excited about the choices of pieces including those on the alternative lists. Is he only doing pieces from the book or has he looked at other options where you have to buy additional music?

I haven't read the full thread as I'm a bit short of time, but just to pick up on one thing.

I work in music, and was chatting with a colleague this morning about kids' motivation to practice. There is an oft quoted study in our circles, the results of which show that children who are told that they are talented are far less likely to make an effort than children who are congratulated on the hard work that led to their achievement.

You mentioned that his teacher has said to you that he is talented at the piano, has said teacher (and/or anyone else) been saying to your son that he is talented? If so, this might discourage him from practising. After all, if he is talented, he doesn't need to bother working at it (that's what a lot of talented children end up thinking, and it's such a shame because it leads to a tailing off in effort for lots of children).

Shelling - thanks for the links, will have a look. With the LCM exams, he was doing the pieces in the book, but they have now been changed to the alternatives. The teacher has let us photocopy borrow his books.

Did the teacher also tell you that it's illegal to photocopy music?

OP - if he's been singing for 2 years then gr 3 is fine at his age. I'm sure he could be further ahead in the grades than that if that was a key consideration, but if the teacher is doing lots of different songs with him, not just the grade songs, plus sight reading and aural, that's fine. I would encourage him to join a choir, assuming he's not already in one. Singing in a choir doesn't feel like work at all, and helps a lot with the quality of the voice (if you have a good choir director) and with general musicianship.

I am a violin teacher and performer, and our three teens all play (one very seriously). I disagree with almost everyone, because I feel quite strongly that a new teacher can make a huge difference to a child's attitude and motivation. My kids have always taken a leap forward with each new teacher- something about the change of approach, and the excitement of a fresh start.

I feel that three years is generally a good amount of time with a teacher, and your son has had 6 years with his current teacher. If I were you, I would look for a teacher who would have ideas about getting your son to perform more, improvise more, play more different kinds of music, etc. Your son sounds like a very musical child, who has fallen into a hum-drum exam-fuelled approach, which (I think) can sap the excitement from learning music.

Exams are completely unnecessary; they can be a convenient tool for teachers but can also be counter-productive for some kids.

The teacher runs a children's choir, but it's difficult for me to get DS there on the evening it's on and he hasn't really nagged to go (he did start - lasted a term). There isn't another children's choir close enough to get to.

The teacher puts on a student concert at the end of every school term and DS usually sings and plays piano in this. I think it may only be singing this time as none of the piano pieces are ready to perform :( He's also sung at a couple of concerts in the local area over the last year.

Delphine, his piano teacher didn't tell me he was talented (he's told me he's certain that DS could do much better, and indeed does when it's something he really wants to play). It's his school teachers who tell me how talented he is.