Anyone got experience of Suzuki Violin method with 3-year-olds?

[GoodEnoughMama]

I'm not a Tiger Mum (honest!) but I come from a background where music was given great importance. I played a couple of instruments myself and, sensing that DD1 degree has a certain amount of musicality, decided to look into the Suzuki method of violin lessons. Having read quite a lot around the subject now, I'm impressed by the general philosophy of nurturing talents from an early age - in theory.

Having been recommended a local teacher, I started my DD just before she was 3 and a half. I tried to prepare her in advance in order to create/foster an interest in learning to play the instrument; again in theory she seemed genuinely keen.

The reality has been quite an eye opener. The half hour lessons are a bit of a minefield! She just won't focus for any length of time; she messes around and fidgets non-stop (rolling around on the floor, talking about all things other than violin); and she steadfastly refuses to listen to or do anything her teacher asks her. And it seems to be getting worse.

I know the Suzuki philosophy is all about play-based learning at this stage, and her teacher tries every trick in the book to get her to come to heel! To no avail! It's getting a bit embarrassing and more than a bit frustrating to watch, especially as I know she can and does focus on other "projects" (drawing, making things, etc.) for considerably longer periods of time than she does at the violin lessons.

I'm beginning to wonder if i'm doing the right thing as i don't want to have to discipline her and take all the fun out of learning to play. Today I felt so despondent as she learned nothing. I even began to wonder whether she has ADHD ! We left with her bawling her eyes out (she thought we were leaving because she'd "misbehaved" and her teacher sort of let her believe this to see if it would have any effect on her behaviour). She seemed to be devastated as, she said, she wants to learn (but in reality the half hour was up). She cried the whole way home and told me that she really wanted to go back and listen to her teacher. Gah!

Anyone got any experience of this? Do I need to rein in my expectations? Should I pull her out and try again later, or face the fact that she's not cut out for this kind of activity?

I would take from that that she's not ready.

Half an hour lesson to concentrate on is a lot for a 3yo. My dd1 everyone said had phenominal concentration, but that would have been her limit. Yes they can concentrate at something of their choosing, but it's very different when it's at a fixed time rather than what she wants when she wants.

When you say in theory she seemed keen, I'd say that if I'd said to any of my dc at that age "Do you want to XXX?" They'd almost certainly have said a resounding "yes please"-but they wouldn't have had any idea of the commitment or what they were agreeing to.

I'd stop the lessons for a bit, let her have fun on the violin, and realise that it won't restrict her musicability if you leave it a couple of years. If she starts asking for the lessons again, then you can consider it, but I'd wonder whether 2x 15 minutes would be better than 1x 30 minutes.

My DD started at 3, and I wish I'd stopped and come back to it later. I have seen other children start that young, and they've been fine, though.

DS started at 5, and seems to have got on much better, at least at the start.

The good news is that now, at 11, she is very independent with her practising. She really does want to do it, and knows that I will stop paying if she doesn't practise properly.

How does your DD go at the group lessons? The social aspect is very important, IMO, as they want to keep going, because they have friends there.

It's not a smooth ride, but I'm glad I have done it.

I was a suzuki violin kid. Did the residential courses, got the t-shirt etc etc. I remember being completely traumatised as the teacher was following the "regulations" which involved the first month bowing with a cereal box with a ruler stuck on masquerading as the violin and another ruler stuck on it as the bow. I thought it meant she didn't trust me to hold a proper violin and thought I was being conned. I too rolled round and caused havoc as I didn't get the point of the cereal box. My mother had the sense to ask me what was going on - I got the violin, and it all took off .

I did performance diplomas in violin and piano - during 6th form - not dedicated enough to go to music school. However I hardly play now. While I don't remember Suzuki with any real fondness, I think that was more the other pushy mothers and the spineless, not particularly talented teacher who let the stroppy kids do what they wanted. Some teachers are great, some need help. However some of the pieces were wonderful (others less so), and 30 years on from first learning them aged 4 or 5, I can still remember the damn things. I had a pushy mother who sucked the joy out of most things - so glad you are clearly not the same as Suzuki can turn most parents into competitive parents!

DD was kind of interested when she was little, but not enough to gell, and I was too busy. She is now nearly 6 - and I offered again to teach her violin and piano last month, and she is doing really well. We do 10 minutes a day, every day, of each. Small enough time to keep the attention span, and keep the desire for more. I am now finding her sneaking off to the piano to practice of her own free will.

Sorry for a long post, but hope that encourages you that just because she isn't that into it now, it doesn't mean she won't be in the future. If it isn't working, is there a Kodaly music group or something like that she could join.
Singing, experimenting with different sounds, lots of percussion that kind of thing.

IMO at 3 1/2 she is old enough to be told, if you don't behave you don't get to go. Leave it for a month or two, then offer it her again. She will know you mean her to behave, and hopefully it will go better. Otherwise leave it longer, keep music going in the house, let her see you playing etc, and don't worry about it.

I am all for starting young but a 3 yo is a baby. You might scare her off. Starting at 5-6 will still give you and dd a headstart.The last thing you want is to create unplesant associations with playing / learning / listening to music.
Just have patience and do not rush - these early years fly by and its all downhill afterwards :(.
Just let her be your baby a bit longer.. Make cakes together while listening to something good on the radio.Play imaginative games. Let her feel safe and confident. She will mature in her own good time and you will miss this lovely age very soon .. Spoken from experience :)

PS Remember reading somewhere of Japanise attitude to bringing up children : treat them as kings until they are 5 , threat them as slaves afterwards..

PS And please dont be scared of being a Tiger mum :) I love tiger mums.But 3 is waaaaayyyy too young. Show her you mean business in her 5th birthday :)

I think its unrealistic to expect a three year old to concentrate for half an hour. Surely it would be better for the teacher to play the violin to her to keep her interest.

My dd is three years old and desperate to learn guitar.

3YO? - take her out to play.

Find yourself a Stringbabies teacher - puppets, shapes and a magnet board it's every 3 year olds idea of fun & they get to compose from the very beginning too!

I have no experience of this age group playing the violin which is what you asked for in your OP. I also don't play an instrument myself so keep that in mind when you read my post. I am not a teacher or any kind of expert. From observing dc playing music, I now think it is the child herself who teaches herself the instrument in the end. Of course dd will need guidance and teachers are not obviously irrelevant but the fact is IME of observing it, the dc is the one who does it in the end, and she has to want to do it, otherwise she simply won't do it. It takes a lot of hours of input, and it is outside of class when the dc works on her own that she progresses. That is the only way it works IMO and with the violin the dc has to actively listen to what she plays. I know that sounds obvious but in fact I get the impression they often really don't do this. If she gets a blockage now because she doesn't want to do it, she will simply not listen to what she plays when she is made to do it - and then she will never be getting even the notes right, never mind quality of sound.

I have observed a couple of suzuki violin classes and I did not like them at all. In particular I did not like the atmosphere of those particular classes. However I know other people do like them which may have a lot to do with the teacher and yours sounds good. It is up to you to know if they are good classes for your family. If this is what you want dd to do, perhaps you should stop now because the way you have described it, she will reject the violin entirely before long - and try again, maybe with a different teacher in 2-3 years time as a fresh start. Perhaps then she will have a schoolfriend who could start with her. For now, if she wants to do it, sing with her

Are the other dc in her current group class around the same age as your dd?

You speak a huge amount of sense Zen. As a teacher, I have often had difficulty in getting parents to understand me when I say that I aim to make every pupil into their own teacher! The teacher is there to inspire, enthuse and help when necessary so that you end up teaching the pupil how to listen to themselves, correct themselves and learn when it is necessary to ask for help. Teaching music is as much about teaching independence as it is about anything else, but it only works if the pupil has a secure trusting relationship with their teacher.
A teacher that understands this learning process will be able to become a key part in the pre-school education of any child and help them to flourish. If you can say that the pupil truly accepts their violin teacher into their life, it is working.
Personally I would not worry at all about practice at this age. If a child is keen, they should be able to ask for it, but will need guidance. I would not dream of teaching any child of this age without the parents attendance as it is vital that they are seen trying to help.
HTH

I'm a pro violin/viola player and DD1 nagged and nagged for a violin from the time she was able to talk. I'd taught violin for years but only from the age of 5, so we tried Suzuki violin when DD1 was 2.5 but we didn't last 3 months. She was articulate and confident with a great attention span but the lessons were 50 minutes long!! For two two year olds, it was a completely unreasonable expectation. As someone said earlier 2x15mins per week an a group lesson as well might just have worked, but this was awful. She was totally underwhelmed by the cardboard box violin idea (had seen me play and felt pretty miffed that it didn't make a sound) and when she did graduate to a real instrument she was distraught that she couldn't play Peter's theme from Peter and the Wolf in the first lesson. The teacher suggested that we "try some tough love" ie- make her stand on the mat in required position don't ask her, and that seemed completely at odds with everything else I did parenting-wise. We finally bailed out when she started crying in one lesson "I'm just not good at the violin".
DH and I agreed not to try any other instrument until she could read, so instead we went to one 30 min general fun music class a week with plenty of tambourines and silly songs and much more fun was had by all.
DD is now 4.5 and we started doing piano together two months ago. She's racing through her first tutor book and finding it all within her grasp.

OP - Your child is much too young and that is quite a concession for a pushy parent like myself :) . At that age they just lack the maturity to make any significant progress.

We started our DS on a monkey music type experience at about 3. The children would sing, dance and play simple instruments like the drum and tambourine.
We waited until DS was aged 5.5 before we starting formal violin lessons.

OMG flussy - I had secretly hoped that they had ditched the cardboard box as a violin ..... is significant that I remember it as one of the most patronising moments of my life - and I was just 4!

I do have to say that the pieces in the books are nice (lots of Bach and Vivaldi) - and I will add that there are Suzuki violin teachers in existence who teach outside the "method" - ie add other pieces that they think will help the child develop musically. One of these, told me years ago that Suzuki as intended originally has been corrupted so to speak. In Japan, they would have had a group lesson - and their part of it wouldn't last that long, they would listen to others play as well as themselves (awaken the desire to be like the bigger children). The idea was they learnt one tiny thing each week, so they had a desire to learn more - baby steps and all that.

From my DD, I have found stopping at 10 mins max means that she wants to do it again the next day, or even morning and night. I think an hour would leave her exhausted, and she is nearly 6.

I am musical, but got put off (by Suzuki and a mother I couldn't say boo to) and so it isn't really part of my life. Whilst a friend who was / is nowhere near as good, still plays regularly - the difference is she started later, didn't have a pushy teacher or mother - and I think spent alot of her earlier years listening to the Salvation Army band when her mother was volunteering, and doing the kids singing kind of stuff.

I am assuming that taking the joy of music into adulthood is your aim, so focus more on sheer pleasure of listening to and making music, and less on "attainment". In otherwords ditch Suzuki, and find a fun music class. Good luck!

what is the actual reason for the cardboard box, does anyone know?

Hi - my dd doesn't do Suzuki - but she begged for violin lessons just after she turned four (I play piano quite badly and that's it, so I was bemused). We waited six months and got her a teacher when she kept begging. She's been having weekly lessons since January.

Some weeks it goes great, and others I wonder why we bother. She also rolls around on the floor (even though she'll soon be five) and keeps breaking off in order to hug her teacher.

HOWEVER - she only has twenty minutes at a time and her teacher varies it enormously. She'll play for perhaps ten minutes in two bursts, and then will do rhythm cards where she'll clap rhythms or learn to read notation. This helps to break it up for her. We do five minutes practice a day, which I reckon is QUITE enough at 4.

As a result dd is BEGINNING to make quite a nice noise (occasionally), understand pitch a bit and read a stave. There's also the mathsy stuff - holding three beats, or playing quavers in half the time of a crotchet. All of this I figure will be beneficial whatever she chooses to do in the future.

But I wouldn't have wanted to start her any younger and suspect she'd just have learnt the same things faster if we'd started her later! Just some thoughts.

Thanks All for your considered responses. I've read in detail and found a lot of helpful advice.

To be clear, DeWe, the lessons are supposed to be very play-based and tailored to a 3-year-old's concentration level. The half hour is broken up into chunks and includes clapping rhythms, dancing to the teacher playing the violin, naming the parts on the violin, teaching mummy how to play (violin isn't my instrument), and various other games. I'm present throughout.

In theory it should work - sometimes - and some days are better than others for sure. What Reallytired said resonates quite a bit: she's perfectly capable of concentrating for long periods of time on something of her choosing and in her own time, as opposed to a fixed slot. Her nursery teacher once described her sternly as, "very focused and intense in the way that some perfectionists who want to please everyone can be" and then looked at me inquisitively for signs of genetic traits She's right about the ability to focus - and DD certainly thrives on one-to-one attention - which is why I thought Suzuki would be good for her!

Sometimes I wonder if it's my presence that causes the problem. But it's contrary to the Suzuki philosophy for the parent not to be present. Handmade, we're not doing group lessons as yet as I've been waiting to see how individual lessons go before committing her to anything else. I see the potential benefit to be gained from the social aspect, and with that in mind her teacher has already suggested she be given more chances to observe other children playing. I'm sure she'd like that.

Ohmygosh, i've heard about the box and ruler method of teaching! DD's teacher doesn't seem to subscribe to that method, thankfully; I think there's some flexibility within the broader Suzuki concept. My understanding is that it's based on the notion that very young children aren't to be trusted to respect and look after their instruments carefully so this was a way of minimising damage? Perhaps i've got that wrong? But the contrary theory is that allowing the child to hold and play the "real thing" should foster a pride of possession and encourage them to want to play more. I definitely see DD's pride in owning her very own instrument.

I generally only suggest practice, after dinner and before bath, when I sense she's got the energy for it and is in a cooperative mood. Practice is never more than ten minutes and definitely not every day. DH is very good at shouting out the occasional "remember to keep it fun" when he hears the tension mounting in my voice. I usually call it a day at that point.

As Pianomama points out, IMO it's crucial to avoid unpleasant associations at this age. I agree with many of you that life should be primarily about fun and play at 3/4, although I loved your idea of "meaning business" when she's 5, Pianomama

Zen, you do talk a great deal of sense, to me, it's just that the Suzuki philosophy seems very strict on technique, stamina-building (especially for violin and bow hold) and instilling discipline. I was a cellist, and generally considered to be fairly gifted musically. I could make a nice sound and play with lots of expression, but I completely lacked discipline and my technique was decidedly ropey. My teacher was probably too soft with me. She admitted as much herself, but I wasn't going to be the one to suggest a change! I think she inspired me in many ways but I don't know if she quite managed to teach me to be my own teacher, which, as Pugs points out, is pretty important - eventually - as far as practice is concerned.

Flussymummy, I hear you as far as the tough love issue goes! The teacher used those very words with regard to the ploy of letting DD believe we were leaving the lesson (with her in hysterics) due to her uncooperative behaviour, and it sent a shiver up my spine. Just as you say, it's so at odds with everything else I do parenting-wise and absolutely not what I wanted for my 3-year-old child when we started out on this journey.

So, taking everyone's advice on board, my first step is to stop worrying about attainment (your words, Ohmygosh) and see if things improve over the next couple of weeks. A lot of you have suggested giving it a break, which I now plan to do over the course of the summer, and then perhaps we'll see if she's more ready for it as we move into Autumn. She'll be 4 in November and a couple of you seem to have had more success with 4-5 year olds, albeit that they're still just babies very unfocused. (Sleepingbunnies, my DD breaks off to hug me up to twenty times per lesson!). If things haven't picked up a bit by then I'll certainly look into the other options suggested here (Kodaly, Stringbabies, etc.) although we've been doing "fun" music classes, in the form of Rhythm Time and other more informal singing groups, since DD was very young.

Watching and waiting - but definitely no longer worrying. Thanks again for your input here everyone. Thought provoking and helpful.

Just one thought - what times of day does she concentrate best - make a note - then see if you can change the time of the lesson accordingly. My DD can be very variable .... and is all about how tired she is.

How about taking her to watch a group lesson, showing her the standard of behaviour required - and when she can do it, then she can join. DD was / is always very motivated by doing things with others or should that be doing things as well as others

Glad you sound more relaxed.

I think this child is probably too young and agree it is a long time to expect a 3 year old to concentrate. I always thought that this method was for the pushy mums so didn't get involved. So I'm afraid know little of the method. I will say though that unless the child is willing they will not learn, no matter how hard they are pushed. DD is 8 and plays 4 instruments all of which she has begged us to play. She practices for as long as she can and we have to usually take one out of her hands at bed time. She is still only 8 and I believe that by not pushing she has found her own way. Never once have we had to cajole, bribe or even remind her to play. DD sees her teachers as her friends who give her tips to improve her playing, she believes she is a musician and that her teachers are her colleagues. She does have respect though and knows they are extremely knowledgable and brilliant players.

Goodenoughmama- really kind of you to reply to everyone! If your DD is at Rhythm Time classes, I can highly recommend getting hold of a copy of the "Dogs and Birds" piano tutor book as it (like Rhythm Time) is based initially on the Kodaly method. The first few tunes in the book are based on the minor third interval (hello Ratatat) and my DD found it all quite straightforward as it was so familiar.

I always understood that a child has an attention span equal to minutes of age so a 3yr old could give a decent amount of concentration for 3-5 minutes at a time then you need to swap activity and do something else/differently .

It sounds like really it's all a bit much at 3.

My kids started conventional piano lessons at 6-7yrs and had 20 mins moving up to 30 at th estart

DS1 begged to do violin when he was 3, so he took classes a couple of months before his 4th birthday. He was utterly, utterly delighted to take home a violin after his first lesson, and slept with it in his bed. However, he was also distraught that he wouldn't be learning how to play Vivaldi's four seasons in week one. He didn't have the concentration and the tiny violin was difficult to play. He stopped and then waited two years before joining the same class. He's doing fantastically now. Worth waiting!

I am a semi Tiger mom ;) Semi because I was a tiger dad's result and hated the fact that I had no real child hood. The only reason I had a teenager life was because I begged to go to boarding school two province away :)

Anyhow, my nephews are current and ex Suzuki kids (the current one is studying under Betty Haag in Chicago - you can watch the 2012 violin concert Vivaldi videos on YouTube and my nephew's in it). Both started at about 4. They are really mellow kids and had really good attention span at that age. The one in Suzuki is now 6 and the oldest has now moved on to a different method (he does piano and is extremely good).

I am thinking of doing Suzuki with our youngest in a year, she's 3 now. I'm not so sure though since she's such a spirited kid :) I will give the music school a look though, to see how they operate. The interesting thing is, even though the preschooler is spirited, she seems interested. She'll sit on the piano and hit the keys one at a time, pretending to play some sort of music, and can sit there for a good 10 minutes playing.

Suzuki would have worked best with the oldest. She has the temperament but we lived in the middle of nowhere until she turned 6 and so we're now doing the classical method with a fab teacher and doing really well.