almost 5 YO getting very frustrated with violin

[pantomimecow]

DD (reception) had 2 violin lessons at her old school .She was learning from a book called fiddletime starters and all the music seemed notes seemed to be written out on strings and with the letter of the note on and she plucked the strings.
She has moved to new school and a new peripatetic violin teacher.She wants them to read proper music from the outset, use the bow and after only 2 lessons (ie 4 in total) she has been taught all the open strings and first position ie 10 notes
I think it is too hard for a child who has not been in school a term and is still 4.Is this the nbormal way to teach little ones

Immediate reaction from me (and I know nothing about learning music, so forgive me) but isn't the violin a terribly hard instrument to learn (and make sound nice!)...especially for a 4 yo?

Sounds a bit bonkers. Though I don't think writing the letter on the note is really the way forward either. 4 is very very young, unless you use a system like Suzuki which specialise in teaching v young children.

If you have Colourstrings near you, or another music school that teaches Kodaly, I can highly recommend them. They don't start instruments until the child has been doing music kindergarten for a year, and even then there's lots of playing on open strings and gradually moving to proper notation.

is this a wind-up?
poor kid
give her a break

doesn't that man who writes the lady detective books write about you too (bertie's mum)? or perhaps you are genuine inwhich case your Dc needs to be playing inthe snow, not with a bow.

I don't understand how the frustration is showing itself. CAn you explain more.

Wouldn't open + 1st = 8 notes? Do we take it you are having to pick this up at the same time?

Why wouldn't she be asked to use a bow?

Does she think it too hard, or is it you?

What I'm getting at is - is she frustrated becasue she hates the wretched object, can't get a decent sound and you don't want to help her? Or is it because she's goign a bit faster than she can cope with, she likes it a lot, but you are both finding it hard to deal with an unfamiliar Thing?

Violin is very unrewarding initially - and 4 is too young.

I started learning when I was 8 and it was fiendishly difficult, albeit very enjoyable. However I think that was young enough.

Be careful or you may put him off music (I tried dd on the cello when she was 6 and she hated it).

Doesn't sound normal to me.

I'd drop this teacher for at least a couple of years, she's liable to be put off for life.

It's a way of teaching, not the only way though. It's a huge amount. I agree with getting them to read music straight off but open strings need a couple of weeks to cement in to her head before you even start on first position. Even the correct bow hold needs a long time and a lot of work.

If it's not working for her she won't enjoy it. If she doesn't enjoy it she won't practice.

When I started aged 4, we did a pre-instrumental group for a year before even picking up a violin. IMO that way is the best as children get a chance to develop an ear for music and have FUN with it.

From what I can remember, all the open notes + first position would be more like 16 notes but that's neither here nor there. I'm sure s heck that when I started learning I was 7 or 8 and would still be doing open strings 4 lessons in!

4 is not too young if she wants to do it!

There are wonderful teachers out there, have a look and you can always go to teachers and ask for a 'sample lesson' to see how you'll gel.

She does want to do it-that's the problem! I would be very happy for her to give it up!!She learns with the county music service through school and we're kind of stuck with that.
her frustration shows itself in lots of tears 'grrrs' and 'i can't do it' s and sometimes I fear for the rented violin!! (although that's probably unfair because she hasn't been rough with it at all (yet))

I just thought the other teacher's method was much more child-friendly but she now has 3 weeks to cement what she's learning before the lesson's restart after xmas.

Has anyone got any tips for helping them recognise the notes, and also she can't remember which sign meant up bow and which meant down bow??

The base of the bow looks vaguely like a frog, with an eye. The sign for down bow looks like a square gate. Think frog jumps through the gate.

Up bow is a pointy V. Put the point of the bow on the string where you see a pointy V.

Stop her practicing any first position until she can read and is confident with the open strings. Otherwise it will get far too confusing.

Start off with making her aware how high open strings(E) are written high up and low (G) written low down. Lots of games and encouragement about where they are on the violin and on the paper.

When you do start to introduce the left hand try colour coding each note. It's much clearer for younger kids to think blue note = putting first finger down. Red note = finger 2. Yellow note = finger 3. (Don't add the fourth finger in yet, stick to open strings for as long as possible.)

Don't get too hung up about her 'knowing all the notes' a lot of children will learn by ear and not read music properly for a couple of years. Work on developing her ear more than her sight reading, see if she can sing what she plays, add words too. "A , A, A, I can play A, Now I'm going up to B..."

Watch a couple of you tube videos so you can keep a couple of steps ahead of her to help her out

One-time professional violinist and violin teacher here.

4 is really a bit young to start, unless she's doing Suzuki (which I would not recommend, as the memorisation and no-reading thing stores up problems for later).

Nothing wrong with learning to use the bow from the start, given that's how the damn thing's played.

Colourstrings is GREAT if you can find a good teacher in your area.

And she'll probably sound awful for about three years -- but don't let that put you or her off! Buy her some nice recordings of violin concertos (Tchaikovxky, Mendelssohn, Bruch, Beethoven, Mozart) to encourage her.

4 is young to start but not necessarily TOO young. I started at 7 and it took bloody ages to get a decent sound and to feel rewarded in my efforts IYSWIM.

If she loves it, then persevere and maybe explore other teaching options. If she's fed up, don't push it (she's only 4) and maybe let her try something with a quicker reward to start with (recorder, keyboard) which can then progress to a 'harder' instrument.

I agree Undercova. Perservere a bit without pushing too hard - if it's really causing heartache you may want to defer for a while. 4 going on 5 is not too young - depends on the child. DD started at that age with a teacher who made it so much fun - I believe it was absolutely right for her. That said, we did struggle initially with the practice until after a few months she could make a nice sound and play familiar simple tunes.

4 isn't too young, with the right teacher. I'm a violinist and my son requested a violin when he was 4. However, all I did was show him how to hold it and use the bow (no note reading). I taught him how to play each open string, then we used to make up silly rhymes and play rhythms, or he'd 'play along' while I played things like Twinkle Twinkle on the piano. He really felt like he was playing properly, but we were just having fun. He didn't play very often at all - just when the mood took him. Of course, you wouldn't pay someone to do this, I'm just fortunate I was able to show him.
Once he was a term in to year 1, was reading fluently and able to concentrate for longer periods, I felt he was ready for more formal learning, so we started our 'proper' lessons. Because he was already able to make a decent sound on the open strings, the rest came fairly easily. The note reading hasn't been easy, and I spent a lot of time writing finger numbers in so he didn't get frustrated. A year on, at 6, he's about grade 1 standard, and the note reading is far more reliable. He also plays in a local orchestra, which he loves. He asked to start the piano in September too, so we're tinkering with that, and he's finding it easy because the musical knowledge is there already.
Your DD's teacher sounds inexperienced with very young children, to be honest. The old teacher's approach sounds more realistic, and fiddletime starters is great for little ones, if they must start reading notes straight away.
I would give notice and find a more suitable private teacher out of school if I were you. Some peripatetic teachers are fab, but some are very questionable in their abilities - I would hate paying money but having no choice over who taught my child. Find someone better!

You say she's just changed school. The problem maybe that the county teacher has just had to find some way of fitting her in for a lesson and is working with a group of varying ages and standards. This is not ideal, but give the poor teacher a chance! The chances of him/her having a nice little group of kids that started the same time & are the same age as your DD are quite remote.

I am not making excuses for this teacher, but sometimes teachers have to make the decision that any lesson is better than no lesson in the short term with a view to finding a more appropriate grouping in the future!

I would help with practise by asking her to show you the 'easy' things she can already do & the more difficult. The more your DD explains to someone else what she is trying to achieve, the more likely she is to understand herself. However, I do personally think that 4 is a little young unless showing huge amounts of talent!

Well done for doing this with your dd! Mine is nearly 8 and a Suzuki kid, started at 4, I also have an older cellist.

If I had it to do over again, I would never feel "stuck" with any teacher. Definitely think of trying out some others out of school and consider then giving notice. The school lessons can be either ok or really crap in my (4 years) experience.

The level of involvement you are getting into would make you and her possible Suzuki material-I'm a parent not teacher but I disagree about note reading problems, my dds did/is learning to read music with great ease now she is seven (forget it at 4 though!). And can already play loads of great sounding tunes, and by ear can make a reasonable stab at anything she wants to try. Suzuki has its drawbacks and its good points like anything.

DD (just 4) has been learning cello for a few months and really enjoys it - tho we haven't sorted out a practising routine yet... She is being taught by the teacher who has developed a system called 'stringbabies' and it's really fun, gentle and effective. After about 9 lessons, DD can now play very simple tunes on the open strings and has just moved to reading normal music (just 4 notes for the open strings so far) from the simple symbols-for-strings she started with. It seems a great system to me (not musical) and does show a way to start very young without in anyway forcing it on them. There is a website www.violinbabies.com/