Westminstenders: Going, going, cummings

[RedToothBrush]

As expected he's fucking off and leaving everyone else to pick up the pieces in January. But it does look like he was eventually shown the door and left with a cardboard box. As he should have been months ago.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Johnson needing an image change, like the shape shifting creep he is, to one that fits more with the incoming Biden Administration. In other words hes got some serious sucking up to do...

... Meanwhile in Brexit land we are going into yet another final week of talks.

Many expect Cummings departure to signal 'the cave in'. The Eu say we havent moved enough and the uk say the EU wants us to do all the moving... Except the EU have done lots of moving. Barnier is still looking for a groundsman to level his field to play. We have yet to work out we aren't Canada and distance is important to trade.

Of course if we don't get a deal, that Pfizer vaccine in Germany that we want, might be hit with delays and extra costs we just can't afford.

@SabrinaThwaite
Just tuned in to GBBO?
Peter wins.

Bad luck - you missed me by 15 minutes and my phone was charging in a different room. I doubt I would have been tempted to look at Mumsnet in any case - dh always 'fast forwards' over the adverts and it was the GBBO Final after all - I do have some self control.

FishesaPlenty
The tariff for South African peaches is 4.9%, not 18.4%.

Southern African peaches? You might be right, but I'm not going to do the legwork to check, and you haven't provided a link. Is the tariff the same for processed peaches? Is there a tariff rate quota? You don't have to answer - I don't even buy tinned fruit.

DrBlackbird
Voldemort's division between mud bloods and pure bloods come to mind

Actually, I have two French grandparents (who emigrated to the UK in their early twenties) - which I believe makes me one quarter French - but alas my French language skills are very limited. DS1 has 3 language GCSEs though (A*s/9s).

Anyhow, I'll say this...Clav you are making another frivolous and unsupported argument wrt Erasmus+...A case of confirmation bias without the confirmation. One, this conjecture that the target group is smaller than you not we think is plain wrong.

I know that 26% of the UK Erasmus cohort in 2014/15 were not UK nationals and 1,000 students were double counted because they attended more than one placement in the same year - circa. 5,000 fewer British students (out of 16,500/17,000) than we thought.

Anecdotally, 6 out of 9 undergraduate students I know personally, who are currently studying a degree with a European language element, grew up in a bilingual home in the UK - but that might be because my dc attend private schools in the West London/Surrey area.

Also from the 2014/15 cohort;
^"90 percent of European language students take part in Erasmus and they constitute as many as 41 percent of all Erasmus students. Looking at all language students together, they constitute 50 percent
of all Erasmus students even though they represent just 6.4 percent of the graduate population. This high concentration of Erasmus mobility among language students is another special feature of the UK."^

It seems that you're implying that it'd be better to deprive some 'pure bred' British youth of having this amazing experience, rather than see some undeserving bilingual but still British students share in the experience.

Actually, I was just musing on the low take up of Erasmus/Erasmus+ among British students - and wondering why they had not been encouraged to participate in greater numbers before the Brexit vote. Saying that, I think the UK government will probably agree to participate in the scheme (or something similar) in one form or another.

AuldAlliance
We have never, in 15 years, had a French student come to France on Erasmus. Why the hell, if they have gone through the process of settling in the UK to study and can get financial aid and access to study programmes in another country, would they then mooch back to France?

It sounds as though some students want to do that - University of Sussex;
"Note: EU students completing a placement in their home country have a lower funding priority than those students completing a placement in another European country."

www.sussex.ac.uk/careers/jobs/placements/erasmusplus

Thanks Auldalliance. It's pretty confusing, but presumably means that a UK student taking a degree at an EU university in the future would have access to Erasmus but would have to pay for a visa and for healthcare, both in the country of their degree and then in the Erasmus placement country, and might not be allowed to do a work placement under Erasmus.
Surely UK universities are setting up exchange arrangements at least for those studying modern languages? Both sets of students would have to pay for visas and for health insurance. So going to Ireland would be cheaper for EU students. But Ireland can't take everyone, surely?

Sorry @Clavinova for some reason I assumed you might have read and understood the links you provided yesterday at 20:30. Clearly I was mistaken though.

Here's your link again. www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/commodities/2008709817

It sounds as though some students want to do that - University of Sussex; "Note: EU students completing a placement in their home country have a lower funding priority than those students completing a placement in another European country."

All that means is that someone in the university of Exeter thought "hang on, what if...". Academic institutions are well known for that.

FishesaPlenty
Sorry Clavinova for some reason I assumed you might have read and understood the links you provided yesterday at 20:30. Clearly I was mistaken though.

Sorry, I only spotted this;
"Importing from outside the EU is subject to a third country duty of 18.40 % unless subject to other measures."

but presumably means that a UK student taking a degree at an EU university in the future would have access to Erasmus but would have to pay for a visa and for healthcare,

I think the biggest issue would be the cost of fees. In Ireland, fees for non-EU students are
pretty hefty. For example, non-EU fees for medicine in RCSI are €56k p.a. Although I think with the common travel area, Ireland and the UK have agreed to continue to treat one another as local students for fee purposes.

So going to Ireland would be cheaper for EU students. But Ireland can't take everyone, surely?

No, we can't. My only experience of erasamus is teaching them (mainly Spanish, Italian, German, Austrian and French) and ds1 going on erasamus last academic year. He was pulled back early because of covid.

Ds got a grant towards accommodation which pretty much covered his costs. Those who went to the most expensive cities had to top it up. He also had to get travel insurance. I think it was a backpacker type insurance as our normal annual policy didn't cover it. It was a fantastic experience that he really enjoyed.

I'm very confused, but I thought that if you were covered by Erasmus (which an international student is if they attend an Erasmus university, even though they come from outside the EU), you don't pay higher fees to the university you're visiting under the Erasmus scheme than you pay to your own university?
So, if you attend a Dutch university free of charge, then although you're British and thus classified as an international student, you can go to a university in France or wherever for free under the Erasmus scheme for a year or less?

If you go to a university on an Erasmus exchange, you pay fees in your home university, not those of the partner one.

The issue in future will be visa and healthcare fees, plus those financial requirements for entering the UK, which will curtail mobility to the UK and partner universities just won't be inclined to carry on accepting lots of UK students if they can't send theirs there (at my university, the UK Erasmus students have on the whole become far less capable of speaking French and far more demanding of special treatment in the last decade, and admin and teaching staff have remarked upon it).

The UK unis have been sending us non-Erasmus bilateral agreements to sign for over a year now, but our admin are sitting on them till everything is clarified.

Need to wait and see whether the nasty EU goes all reciprocal on the UK wrt visas, etc., or not...

Although I think with the common travel area, Ireland and the UK have agreed to continue to treat one another as local students for fee purposes.

It’s on a rolling year-by-year basis, so no guarantees for UK students enrolling in Ireland for 2021/22.

www.universitytimes.ie/2020/06/ireland-uk-fee-agreement-to-continue-into-2021-22-government-confirms/

I'm very confused, but I thought that if you were covered by Erasmus (which an international student is if they attend an Erasmus university, even though they come from outside the EU), you don't pay higher fees to the university you're visiting under the Erasmus scheme than you pay to your own university?

Yes, that is the case but you referred to a UK student doing a degree in an EU university so they would be paying non-EU fees at that University but wouldn't have to pay extra to the university they go to on erasamus. I guess my point is that a UK student is less likely to do a degree in an EU university as they will, in many cases, have to pay much higher fees.

That's true, but there are still some universities that charge very low fees to international students as well as to EU students.
And I suppose that a UK student could go to university in Ireland and pay Irish home level fees, and then go abroad under the Erasmus scheme on no higher than Irish home fees.
Having said that, I suspect that from now on it will be extremely difficult to get into Irish universities as they will enormously in demand.

@Greektome

That's true, but there are still some universities that charge very low fees to international students as well as to EU students. And I suppose that a UK student could go to university in Ireland and pay Irish home level fees, and then go abroad under the Erasmus scheme on no higher than Irish home fees. Having said that, I suspect that from now on it will be extremely difficult to get into Irish universities as they will enormously in demand.

Yes, there are. My dd was looking at a couple of italian ones that were very reasonable.

Valid Political comment
The Israeli Defence Force behave despicably
The persecution of the Palestinians within the borders of Israel is harmful to humanity
Many Israeli politicians are racist

Antisemitism
Jews are the problem
Israel is the problem
The Palestinians are the victims

and all stages in between

@Clavinova

FishesaPlenty Sorry Clavinova for some reason I assumed you might have read and understood the links you provided yesterday at 20:30. Clearly I was mistaken though.

Sorry, I only spotted this;
"Importing from outside the EU is subject to a third country duty of 18.40 % unless subject to other measures."

unless subject to other measures.

So you didn't think that you should investigate what 'other measures' might apply before using incorrect information to reinforce an opinion you've apparently been able to form without bothering to check the facts?

Israel is the problem
The Palestinians are the victims

How on earth are those statements anti-semitic? Israeli citizens have continually elected governments that compete in the vigour with which they annex Palestinian land and oppress the Palestinians.

Palestinians are basically in an open prison enforced by the Israeli government - how are they not victims?

@FrankieStein402

Israel is the problem The Palestinians are the victims

How on earth are those statements anti-semitic? Israeli citizens have continually elected governments that compete in the vigour with which they annex Palestinian land and oppress the Palestinians.

Palestinians are basically in an open prison enforced by the Israeli government - how are they not victims?

I know that definitions have apparently become unfashionable, however:

Semite
/ˈsiːmʌɪt,ˈsɛmʌɪt/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a member of any of the peoples who speak or spoke a Semitic language, including in particular the Jews and Arabs.

Is probably a good place to start. "Semite" is not a synonym for "Jew" for a start.

FishesaPlenty

Clearly I am on a learning curve.

One thing I hadn't appreciated before - tariffs can change depending on the season and demand (yes, I am aware that peaches are not citrus fruits);

"Who does the sector fear more Egypt or South Africa?"

"Egypt exports citrus fruits (essentially oranges) to the EU, tariff-free. South Africa already had zero tariffs for its mandarins, and with the signing of the EPA (Economic Partnership Agreement) between the EU and 6 member states of the South African Development Community (SADC) in 2016, the tariff-free period (from the 1st of June to the 15th of October) was extended to the end of November, with a scaled drop of the tariff applicable in this period, which was started in 2016 and will be prolonged over the next six years (in 2026 the tariff will be completely eliminated for this period)."

fruittoday.com/en/articulos/the-wco-is-not-going-to-help-the-interests-of-spanish-citrus-fruit-growers/

June 2020 - "We demand an agreement that avoids tariffs on the export of citrus to the United Kingdom."

"London's announcement about tariffs being imposed on EU agro-food products if no trade agreement is signed between the United Kingdom and the European bloc has raised concerns in various Spanish producing sectors, such as the citrus sector."

"Free way for Morocco and Turkey"
"The Unió stressed that should these tariffs become effective, Valencian producers could lose competitiveness and market share to international competitors such as Morocco, South Africa, Turkey or Israel. It said that the United Kingdom has already signed preferential agreements with South Africa (with a 0% rate for oranges and hybrids), Morocco (with 0% for clementines) and Turkey, while negotiations with Egypt are still underway."

"Semite" is not a synonym for "Jew" for a start.

Neither is Israel a synonym for Jew.

I do not actually know (or care) whether "Jew" is a race, religion or creed - but I do perceive that anti-Jew is anti-Semitic. It's not a word I tend to use in any case.

Anti-Semitism, in theory, encompasses anti-Arab, yes - but theory has to bow to common/evolved usage - and accusing Israel of anti-Semitism because of it's treatment of the Palestinians wouldn't get any traction.

and accusing Israel of anti-Semitism because of it's treatment of the Palestinians wouldn't get any traction.

And yet technically (and politically) it would be true

and accusing Israel of anti-Semitism because of it's treatment of the Palestinians wouldn't get any traction.

Has anyone in this thread done that ?