Westminstenders: The Tunnel or Bridge

[RedToothBrush]

Apparently negotiations are in the black hole of the EU tunnel or should that be on the back of the fantasy of the Boris Bridge?

Another week closer to complete meltdown.

I'm guessing that our world beating customs solution will be based on blackboard and chalk.

@Peregrina

What do you call 'Our generation' DGR? We may not have stepped up, but why should the younger generations be punished? Oh, and the very old and sick who were in care homes.

Well people try to put us down because we get around ?

More seriously the generation that was last lucky enough to get free degrees ?

I think what Louise does not appreciate is that

1.The arts are an industry, and one that adds huge value to our lives so if she thinks they are all feckless drifters perhaps she should switch of all TV and Radio, all online arts contents, ditch all books, records, CDs, Videos. Almost all successful artists spent years finding the opportunities to use their talents, and need luck as well.

But ditto the Scientists I know, especially since the Brexit vote finding an entry level job in science has been almost impossible, and the journalists, and a lot of successful business people. The arts are not alone in you needing to spend years working your way up, finding the opportunities, learning your craft so do you say that all the aspiring Nobel prize winners, Pulitzer Prize winners and Sir Alan Sugars* should forget their ambitions?

And in all these industries people do casual jobs in the meantime to make ends meet.

As a businesswoman I know that being successful in your job is a product of talent, you are motivated to do what you are good at, and getting the necessary skills and experience, and success, follow. So no offence to Fatima but I am sure she will be better dancing and no doubt in due course teaching dance, than trying to use non existent talent to move into cyber - whatever that is.

• I really struggled with a successful business role model that anyone would have heard of and esteem! Sir Richard Branson had it relatively easy and having done business with him has clearly got where he is by finding the shittiest Del Boys to do the dirty work whilst he caresses his brand. Sir Ron Dearing will now be only remembered by a few of us. Business attracts narcissistic sociopaths and they tend to be the ones that become well known....

Does a little dance around the room.
DH has a day's paid work next week and another booked for December.
First time since mid March.
Probably last ones till next March though

And if Louise thinks he should just suck it up and change industry
I respectfully suggest that she keeps such ideas inside her empty head.

Just for information, the "area I live in" is close enough to the middle of Leicester that we've been in lockdown essentially since March with the local measures added on, no partying here I can assure you.

I absolutely don't think loads of people working in the arts are "feckless drifters" loads of them I'm sure work incredibly hard. I'd question the value of some of what they do, but isn't all art (in the broadest sense) subjective. I don't want anyone to lose their job, no-one does, surely, but nor am I terribly sympathetic to special pleading on the part of a group of mostly young, very smart, able workers who can turn their hands to lost of things. People can disagree with me but I don't think those folks warrant special protection.

DGR - don't forget that most people didn't get free degrees, because they didn't go to university. A substantial number didn't even get the chance to do O levels. However, what there was for those of us growing up in the 1950s was full male employment, so a young man could leave school at 15/16, get a decent job and still have a good lifestyle. One which was comfortable but not rich.

There were fewer opportunities for women mind you, and even educated women tended to get pushed into primary teaching, which at the time was a non-degree qualification.

It all speaks to the business illiteracy of this government, thinking of people who can be processed through the education system and moved around the economy as commodities rather than each having the potential to contribute to our economic and cultural life with their unique talents. Why else promote Dido who seems as close to be more devoid of business talent than anyone I have (gladly, because it is frustrating to work with incompetents) witnessed being walked out of the building with their desk ornaments in a box....

I'd question the value of some of what they do As in Charles Moore being touted to “Lead” the BBC or Sir Paul Dacre decree on acceptable content...

Subjectivity should not decide on the arts we are allowed to consume

I see you're still digging, Louise.
It's interesting to read your thoughts, all the same.

China is testing a city of 9 millions in 5 days.
They were also able to get results from the test in 2 hours.

Contrast and compare to what the U.K. (and france, the us etc...) does. I want to know why China can do that and we can’t (aka have the facilities to do the tests, have the raw materials etc... all the things we have been told we don’t apparently have).

There is no way we can contain this virus wo proper track and trace. Yes a vaccine might well protect us and give us herd immunity. But Johnson and Johnson having to stop the trial for some investigations shows how much work there is left to do (as well as how important it is to do those trials properly). We can’t just wait for a vaccine. We need proper containment in place in the mean time so that we can (ALL) go back to living our life as it was before.

twitter.com/standardnews/status/1315777122921742336?s=21

One of the reasons that China can test large numbers so quickly is that they can use pooling of tests - i.e., they group together a batch of (say) 100 samples, test them together and only if the group is positive do they test all the individual samples. This allows you to scale up testing capacity very effectively BUT you need a low incidence of infection for it to work or you end up double testing too many batches.

Mistigri
The other reason China can test so many is that they have no civil liberties
Yes, pooling should have been used in the UK
but the compulsion used to control COVID in China is not something we should seek to emulate

And why can’t we do that @Mistigri??? It has been done in other countries too (Senegal if I remember correctly).
We had opportunities all throughout the summer. We still have those opportunities in some areas with lower incidence. We need to use those.

And it still doesn’t explain the ability to get a result in 2 hours (that was right in the middle of the pandemic)

LQ my question is Moore how do they have a capacity when we don’t?
Why can they manage to test people who are asymptomatic when we don’t?
I wouldn’t want to replicate the whole China way. But in the other side, the only to keep this virus under control at the moment is Test, test and test. Alongside, trace and trace and trace again.
(And compulsory self isolation when you are been told to do so).

Our tack and trace system is appalling. So said SAGE.
Getting a test is difficult and restricted.
And then we wonder why we have it’s not working, saying that it’s all down to PEOPLE not following the rules.....

meuniere
FDA have approved pooling.
NHS have not
www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30444-6/fulltext

A list for you of those MPs who do not believe that British Food standards need to be protected, despite its being a Tory Manifesto commitment.

Nigel Adams Bim Afolami Adam Afriyie Imran Ahmad Khan
Nickie Aiken Lucy Allan Lee Anderson Stuart Anderson
Caroline Ansell Edward Argar Sarah Atherton Victoria Atkins
Gareth Bacon Richard Bacon Kemi Badenoch
Shaun Bailey Siobhan Baillie Duncan Baker
Steve Baker Harriett Baldwin Steve Barclay
John Baron Simon Baynes Aaron Bell
Scott Benton Paul Beresford Jake Berry

Saqib Bhatti Bob Blackman Crispin Blunt
Peter Bone Andrew Bowie Ben Bradley
Graham Brady Suella Braverman Jack Brereton
Andrew Bridgen Paul Bristow Sara Britcliffe
James Brokenshire Anthony Browne Fiona Bruce
Felicity Buchan Robert Buckland Alex Burghart
Conor Burns Rob Butler Alun Cairns
Andy Carter James Cartlidge William Cash
Miriam Cates Maria Caulfield Alex Chalk
Rehman Chishti Jo Churchill Greg Clark
Simon Clarke Theo Clarke Brendan Clarke-Smith
Chris Clarkson James Cleverly Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Thérèse Coffey Elliot Colburn Damian Collins
Alberto Costa Robert Courts Claire Coutinho
Geoffrey Cox Stephen Crabb Virginia Crosbie
James Daly David T C Davies James Davies
Gareth Davies Mims Davies Philip Davies
David Davis Dehenna Davison Caroline Dinenage
Sarah Dines Jonathan Djanogly Michelle Donelan
Nadine Dorries Steve Double Oliver Dowden
Jackie Doyle-Price Richard Drax Flick Drummond
James Duddridge David Duguid Iain Duncan Smith
Mark Eastwood Ruth Edwards Michael Ellis
Tobias Ellwood Natalie Elphicke George Eustice
Luke Evans David Evennett Ben Everitt
Michael Fabricant Laura Farris Simon Fell
Katherine Fletcher Mark Fletcher Nick Fletcher
Vicky Ford Kevin Foster Mark Francois
Lucy Frazer Mike Freer Richard Fuller
Marcus Fysh Mark Garnier Nusrat Ghani
Nick Gibb Peter Gibson Jo Gideon
Cheryl Gillan John Glen Robert Goodwill
Michael Gove Richard Graham Helen Grant
James Gray Chris Grayling Chris Green
Damian Green Andrew Griffith Kate Griffiths
James Grundy Jonathan Gullis Robert Halfon
Luke Hall Matt Hancock Greg Hands
Mark Harper Rebecca Harris Trudy Harrison
Sally-Ann Hart Simon Hart John Hayes
Oliver Heald James Heappey Chris Heaton-Harris
Gordon Henderson Darren Henry Antony Higginbotham
Damian Hinds Richard Holden Kevin Hollinrake
Philip Hollobone Adam Holloway Paul Holmes
John Howell Paul Howell Nigel Huddleston
Eddie Hughes Jane Hunt Jeremy Hunt
Tom Hunt Alister Jack Sajid Javid
Ranil Jayawardena Bernard Jenkin Mark Jenkinson
Andrea Jenkyns Robert Jenrick Caroline Johnson
Gareth Johnson David Johnston Andrew Jones
Fay Jones David Jones Marcus Jones
Simon Jupp Daniel Kawczynski Alicia Kearns
Gillian Keegan Julian Knight Greg Knight
Danny Kruger John Lamont Andrea Leadsom
Edward Leigh Ian Levy Andrew Lewer
Brandon Lewis Ian Liddell-Grainger Chris Loder
Mark Logan Marco Longhi Julia Lopez
Jack Lopresti Jonathan Lord Tim Loughton
Craig Mackinlay Cherilyn Mackrory Rachel Maclean
Alan Mak Kit Malthouse Anthony Mangnall
Scott Mann Julie Marson Theresa May
Jerome Mayhew Paul Maynard Karl McCartney
Esther McVey Mark Menzies Johnny Mercer
Huw Merriman Stephen Metcalfe Robin Millar
Maria Miller Amanda Milling Nigel Mills
Andrew Mitchell Gagan Mohindra Damien Moore
Robbie Moore Penny Mordaunt Anne Marie Morris
David Morris James Morris Joy Morrissey
Wendy Morton Kieran Mullan Holly Mumby-Croft
Sheryll Murray Andrew Murrison Robert Neill
Lia Nici Jesse Norman Neil O'Brien
Matthew Offord Priti Patel
Owen Paterson Mark Pawsey Mike Penning
John Penrose Andrew Percy Chris Philp
Christopher Pincher Dan Poulter Rebecca Pow
Victoria Prentis Jeremy Quin Will Quince
Dominic Raab Tom Randall John Redwood
Jacob Rees-Mogg Nicola Richards Angela Richardson
Rob Roberts Laurence Robertson Mary Robinson
Andrew Rosindell Lee Rowley Dean Russell
David Rutley Gary Sambrook Selaine Saxby
Paul Scully Bob Seely Andrew Selous
Alok Sharma Alec Shelbrooke David Simmonds
Chris Skidmore Chloe Smith Greg Smith
Julian Smith Royston Smith Amanda Solloway
Ben Spencer Alexander Stafford Andrew Stephenson
Jane Stevenson John Stevenson Bob Stewart
Iain Stewart Gary Streeter Mel Stride
Graham Stuart James Sunderland Desmond Swayne
Robert Syms Derek Thomas Maggie Throup
Edward Timpson Kelly Tolhurst Justin Tomlinson
Michael Tomlinson Craig Tracey Anne-Marie Trevelyan
Laura Trott Elizabeth Truss Tom Tugendhat
Shailesh Vara Martin Vickers Matt Vickers
Christian Wakeford Robin Walker Charles Walker
Ben Wallace Jamie Wallis David Warburton
Matt Warman Giles Watling Suzanne Webb
Helen Whately Heather Wheeler Craig Whittaker
John Whittingdale Bill Wiggin James Wild
Craig Williams Gavin Williamson Mike Wood
Jacob Young Nadhim Zahawi Ian Paisley (DUP)
Sammy Wilson (DUP) Julian Lewis (Independent)

And do note that despite the noise made by Prue Leith her son happily voted with the Government.

I thought Louise you said that you thought we would have improved standards now that we had left the EU?

Meuniere
The big problem with the UK Test track and trace system
is that it actively and deliberately
cut out the local teams who are expert at
(a) tracking and tracing
(b) persuading those contacted to do the right thing
they normally contact people about STDs and HIV after all

The huge elephant in the room in all of these COVID lockdowns
is that the message is not reaching certain communities
and that case loads in other demographic groups are minimal.

Locally managed and coordinated cluster tracing and messaging might work
but the lack of trust by this stage is a mountain to climb.

Remember that back in the spring, all of the messaging about COVID was only in English

meuniere It is a country of over a billion people and it can move resources, machinery and people around at will. It is like the Cricks successful operation having exponentially greater resources to call on and able to mobilise effectively. I doubt the thousands of staff involved are entirely volunteer.

It is also an opaque process. We can’t necessarily trust that they give accurate figures on how many they actually test and process (in the last mass testing in Wuhan they used a batch method so they tested a batch of ten and only if they found a positive test did they test in an individual level, that works if you have a low positivity rate but the Cricks positivity rate is at 10% already )

They are on top of it so they can afford not to be entirely as efficient as they claim. We know for instance that with their app you could just screenshot a green code and so gain access to shops etc.

The key thing is that they are getting the cases, the contacts and actually quarantining them and are being seen to fulfil their Confucian duty to care for the people on the times of disease.

LQ - enough of the UK Test, Track and Trace system. There isn't one. It applies to England (and Wales? - although I think they also have some control over how it is being implemented).

In Scotland, our Test, Trace and Isolate system does use local teams and by all accounts seems to be working well maybe because we don't use SERCO

I don't know about NI.

Prettybird
OK so Scotland are doing it differently, but no more efficiently.
Closing pubs and gyms is like putting up CCTV cameras
it moves the problem
not removes it
If cluster tracing and isolation WERE working well, why has Sturgeon had to be so draconian ?

Wales is worse hit than England too.

The message and the support are NOT getting through to those who need it

and it will get worse after the end of December

This is a good article on effective track and trace systems, China does not get a mention. The key factors are balancing privacy concerns with public trust as well as mobilising local testing track and trace systems www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/13/uks-test-and-trace-having-marginal-impact-which-countries-got-it-right?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The week before last golden week coincided with the mid Autumn festival (a lovely festival where families gather in open spaces with lanterns to stay up all night contemplating the moon) so millions moved around China to visit family. It was always a likely flash point. Beaches are especially popular places to gather and Qingdao is a beach resort and yet the cases appear to be confined to the hospital where Covid patients returning from overseas were treated. It fits the narrative that China has got on top of community transmission and it is all coming from overseas a little too neatly....

Interesting set of Below the Line comments on this article
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54525211
The Govt are trying to gaslight business now ....

And back in the land of grown ups
news.sky.com/story/largest-irish-budget-in-history-assumes-no-brexit-deal-and-no-covid-19-vaccine-12103232

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/13/brexit-michel-barnier-mocks-boris-johnson-third-deadline-on-talks

• from a UK government source:

This is all the more frustrating because it is clear that we have come a long way since the beginning of the year. We have approached the negotiations constructively and reasonably but time is now extraordinarily short. We need the EU to urgently up the pace and inject some creativity.

Time is now short because we ignored the option of extending the time
We need the EU to urgently..... because we're stuffed if they don't because they hold all the cards

@ListeningQuietly

Interesting set of Below the Line comments on this article www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54525211 The Govt are trying to gaslight business now ....

Distinct lack of the 52% when I looked ...