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Brexit

Westministender: Amen to that!

995 replies

RedToothBrush · 20/09/2020 20:52

On the Anniversary of the Battle of Britain, Johnson went to Westminster Abbey and was trolled. Its almost divine in its irony.

In a week where just about the entire right wing press has turned on him, for being... well shit... They have the dawning realisation that yes all those annoying lefties were right all along when they said he was full of nothing but hot air. He's been ridiculed for being paid £150,000 a year and not being able to feed his 5000 kids and the pictures to mark the anniversary of him becoming PM do little more than look like a man who couldn't tie his own shoe laces without a nanny to help him.

But its not really a laughing matter. This man doesn't understand what legal agreements he's signed so his solution to his ineptitude is to throw his toys out of the pram together with the rule of law. Which he also does not understand.

Johnson is also ever increasingly keen on ripping up inconvient human right and workers right and he has ample opportunity to do all this in the middle of a pandemic.

Unfortunately the hypocrisy of his cronies isn't exactly helping the behaviour of the public and you have to pity the poor behavioural scientists who have to tell him that 'of course the public are going to give you the vs when you tell them you shouldn't do this when your chief advisor claims to be maybe going blind'.

It seems the whole government strategy on managing the virus seems to be falling flat on its face rather sooner than planned cos they stuck Dildo in charge who wouldn't know her Rs from her elbow if it hit her in the face. And we've got Hancock going full on 1984, telling us not to believe the reports that no one can get a test because its all lies - except half the country has either first hand experience of the travesty of Track and Trace or has a close mate who they know is a hell of a lot more reliable than any of these fuckwits when it comes to telling the truth.

Meanwhile in America Bader Ginsburg has managed to die at possibly the most inconvient and dangerous time possible just as the future of democracy in the US is clinging on by its finger nails.

And yes. Money laundering. Haven't we talked about that a lot on these threads. Its almost as if FinCEN was predictable...

Taking back control was always about the elite taking back control from the masses. But if you've managed to keep following all this time, we've been saying that since April 2016 and no one listened then, so why would they start listening now?

Westministender: Amen to that!
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quiteathome · 22/09/2020 13:24

I don't know how anyone can carry on defending them. After everything that has happened. The blind faith that people have in the Cummings and Johnson government is astounding. I don't understand it.

prettybird · 22/09/2020 13:31

As far as I can make out, the only substantive changes are the 10pm curfew for the hospitality industry and reverting to the advice to work from home if possible which the Scottish Government had never moved from, for which it was criticised

Not sure it's going to have that much of an effect Hmm

It will be interesting to see if Nicola comes up with anything stronger in her announcement to the Scottish Parliament within the next hour. Ditto with Wales and NI (not sure when their announcements will be).

prettybird · 22/09/2020 13:33

I'm also shocked that the English Rule of Six still doesn't restrict the number of households Shock

In Scotland it is Six Two - maximum of Six people, Two households. Unless it's an organised (outdoor Wink) sport.

DGRossetti · 22/09/2020 13:36

@quiteathome

I don't know how anyone can carry on defending them. After everything that has happened. The blind faith that people have in the Cummings and Johnson government is astounding. I don't understand it.
Well we keep being told that people have blind faith in the government. Via the very same channels that put the fuckers there.

I imagine Stalin was never less than 100% popular too in his lifetime.

TheABC · 22/09/2020 13:37

Christmas is set to be low-key this year and we can expect a lot more loneliness and depression, especially for the shielding.

I have a grandfather in care home who I have been able to see once, in the past 6 months due to restrictions. They locked down again on Saturday, 15 minutes before I set off to visit. It's incredibly frustrating and I am wondering if I will get the chance again, before he dies.

ListeningQuietly · 22/09/2020 13:41

Locking down pubs at 10pm does not deal with Leicester sweatshop factories.
Enforcing table service in bars does not deal with mosques and churches.
The police have neither the resources nor the will to arrest half the country.
The courts have massive backlogs already.

COVID is bad
but so is cancer and dementia and heart disease - treatment of which has completely fallen by the wayside for 6 months.

Climate change is the biggest threat we face and yet patio heaters are rehabiliated to allow social distancing

There is no joined up thinking at all.
The Science disregards the fact that scientists each look at their bit of the picture
it is the job of competent leaders to craft all of the facets into a coherent picture

90% of the country do not give a shit about politicians or Brexit - they are too busy existing day to day.

prettybird · 22/09/2020 13:41

In other news, I have booked a hair appointment for Thursday (just a cut - first one since just before lockdown), just in case hairdressers get shut down again.

Maybe I should also have booked a colour as well! (That's planned for Christmas).

mrslaughan · 22/09/2020 13:44

@prettybird

I'm also shocked that the English Rule of Six still doesn't restrict the number of households Shock

In Scotland it is Six Two - maximum of Six people, Two households. Unless it's an organised (outdoor Wink) sport.

So are independent sage - it means 6 households can get together. But 2 households of 10 (with multiple kids) can't. It's just stupid and doesn't address the fundamental measures required to stop the spread
prettybird · 22/09/2020 13:48

We're trying to get a Grant of Confirmation on MIL's estate so that the sale of her house can go through but the Commissary Courts are backed up and likely to be slowed down still further Sad

TheMShip · 22/09/2020 13:48

There is no joined up thinking at all. The Science disregards the fact that scientists each look at their bit of the picture

SAGE and iSAGE are made up of scientists from a wide range of fields to solve this exact problem.

ListeningQuietly · 22/09/2020 13:52

SAGE and iSAGE are made up of scientists from a wide range of fields to solve this exact problem.
And its not worked
because there is nobody with a clear head looking at it strategically and interlinked.
If there was, the guidance might be a bit less garbled

eg how will ANY of the restrictions announced actually deal with the key problems

  • sweatshop factories
  • food processing plants
  • places of worship ignoring the rules
  • raves in woods
  • rising rates of other health problems
DGRossetti · 22/09/2020 13:54

@TheMShip

There is no joined up thinking at all. The Science disregards the fact that scientists each look at their bit of the picture

SAGE and iSAGE are made up of scientists from a wide range of fields to solve this exact problem.

Well you'd think. That is supposed to be the remit for the ACMD - to include a broad church of views to ensure that it's decisions are not taken in a vacuum. And they get ignored too.
prettybird · 22/09/2020 13:54

I didn't know that about Independent Sage - but they're absolutely right.

You reminded me that I should have said that the Six Two Rule was Six adults or teenagers Two households, as we don't count the Under 12s in the number.

TheMShip · 22/09/2020 13:54

Don't blame the scientists for the lack of strategic thinking - that's not their job. They are there to provide advice based on their expertise, from, as I mentioned, a wide range of fields. The government then decide what to do with that - they are the ones to be pointing fingers at.

ListeningQuietly · 22/09/2020 13:59

TheMShip
I do not blame the scientists.
A couple of people I know are on Sage and some more are in iSage.
The problem is that flu virologists are not experts in dealing with clothes factories.

SAGE produce a list of recommendation.
Competent politicians assess them both in light of COVID and wider societal problems.
and produce guidance and regulations

Sadly the UK does not have competent politicians in government.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/09/2020 14:16

Scientists have advised on the science

  • and we don't know what measures SAGE advised and had rejected

Tolerating sweatshops is a political choice
Tolerating unhealthy practices in food processing plants ... is a political choice
Running down the NHS so it is normally near breaking point during winter anyway .. is a political choice
Curring police services so they can't stop raves in the woods etc .. is a political choice

Appointing cronies without relevant experience to key public agencies .. is a political choice

==> Even if the govt changed their Covid strategy, they would not change the above poliical choices

mrslaughan · 22/09/2020 14:25

Listening independent sage have expressed frustration over the gov lack of action on the clothes factories.

I wonder about the makeup of Sage . Prof Sculley made a comment last week about those advising gov.... the first part of his comments was that only 1 out of the 4 (or it it 3?) heads of public health in the country - are specialists and experienced in public health ( the bust and bolts of implementing public health strategy as seen done successfully in Germany) , the second part was that the makeup of the people advising government is wrong (he commented that this was problematic before the pandemic) ....., I took this to mean SAGE - but he didn't elaborate. But I know early on you have issue with Dr Neil Ferguson.....

DGRossetti · 22/09/2020 14:27

If you basically just leave the population to it, you'll end up with the weak and needy dead and the strong and self sufficient triumphant.

Sounds like a plan.

No, scratch that. Sounds like the plan.

It's a Helter Skelter for the Angry Birds generation.

QuestionMarkNow · 22/09/2020 14:39

Interesting comments there... Esp as I never actally stated what my position is on what we should or shouldn't do...

fwiw I was talking about all the graphs that are scattered all over the pess, incl the ones from Whitty.
And the people on twitter are people 'proper' researchesr such as trisha greenhalgh who are one of the (many) researchers to have published on covid (peer reviewed blablabla)... So not your random person really....

The issue is that people only show what is making their point looks right rather than the whole picture. When actually nothing is in black and white but all shades of grey.

I'm struggling to see how this is a bad thing I have to say.

@Emilyontmoor, if you have one for those figures that are adjusted, I'd love to see them as I havent been able to find any of them yet (n they are never the ones people are referring to when talking about a second spike/comparing countries etc...). I am not sure how you can take any decisions without them really.

I worry that Questionmark is manifesting a very large wedge, to stopping this virus.
You can't be further from the truth. There are many things I have defended much before they were made compulsory (like the masks). I am not an anti vax or whatnot (latest insult on MN to say you are crazy usually).
But I am really wondering what is the science behind all those decisions. Because
1- they don't make sense and
2- many countries (incl the UK, France or the WHO) don't seem to learn from those countries/places that are doing well. Why arent we able to learn from those who are doing well and implement that??

So yes I am questioning the logic from BOTH sides on some of the positions. Isn't that what you are supposed to do as a scientist???

prettybird · 22/09/2020 14:42

Ban on visiting other homes inside now extended Scotland wide. No change for us here in Glasgow as that has been the case for the last 3 weeks.

Two household rule remains for outside/hospitality gatherings but has been relaxed for under 12s.

Fortunately the extended household exemption remains, so we can still see my dad.

Ellie56 · 22/09/2020 14:43

You know things are bad when even Theresa May starts kicking off.

QuestionMarkNow · 22/09/2020 14:47

If that can ressure some people on here my views are

  • we will have more deaths from covid in the autumn/winter. Hoe many is to be seen as it will deepnd a lot on what measures are taken
  • I believe a big part of the transmission is thorugh aerosols so masks should be be compulsory indoors. That would include schools too.
  • I am unsure if contact is a big part of transmission however, washing hands isn't detrimental to health so 'better safe than sorry' and carryoing washing hnds makes sense.
  • SD is very good on paper, much harder to implement in a shop or town center. Which is why I'd prefer to see people with a mask outdoors too (in 'crowded places' such as town centres).
-Test & trace should be ramped up. Many places are managing that. As a world beating nation, th UK should. That should include many contact tracers to do a proper detective work to find people and tell them to self isolate.
  • People in care home tested regularly and in self isolation when coming back from hospital (not just a negative test) to avoid infecting others.

There are many more including giving schools the budget to actually be properly 'covid secure' and having access to proper advice (too much variation of what you should do if a child has a cough from one school to the next for example)

I am not one of those who thinks its like the flu or its nothing. Maybe that will help posters to re read my initial post from a different angle.

Emilyontmoor · 22/09/2020 15:05

Questionmark BCF has already posted graphs. I am sorry if I read that nuance wrong but my point was not that you were a conspiracy theorist or even Covid denier but that you may have been manifesting a more general cynicism. I quite take your point that the government advice is confusing and contradictory and invites cynicism but I really don’t think the actual science is. Complicated and full of gaps in knowledge yes but quite honestly so it is with most diseases as anyone who has ever needed to understand their own Cancer will tell you.

As to learning from other countries amen to that . I am actually just coming away from a meeting with a South Korean colleague where we have been sharing stories of the South Korean, Taiwan and Hong Kong responses. By no means paragons of efficiency but they still have managed to minimise deaths.

Emilyontmoor · 22/09/2020 15:10

As to why Harding? I suspect that with any other Tory with actual public health or business competence there was probably too big a risk they would spot the incompetence and waste and inefficiency in the private sector response and have the integrity to point it out. You need someone who can actually let the gravy train roll and not care about the human cost.

Emilyontmoor · 22/09/2020 15:12

Or have any interest in learning from other countries or the public sector in this country. Benchmarking is very much the B in any A to Z of management....