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Brexit

Westminstenders: All bets are off

974 replies

RedToothBrush · 18/03/2020 21:38

We are seeking an extension. Apparently. No prizes for guessing why.

There is no news but COVID news. And that's all there will be for a long time.

Enjoy your stockpile and your sunny uplands it brought.

Keep safe.

OP posts:
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45
AuldAlliance · 24/03/2020 11:33

Defoe:

“It was very sad to reflect how such a person as this had been a walking destroyer perhaps for a week or a fortnight before that; how he had ruined those that he would have hazarded his life to save, and had been breathing death upon them, even perhaps in his tender kissing and embracings of his own children.”

KonTikki · 24/03/2020 12:07

Brilliant quote from Pepys.
Where did you find it ?

DGRossetti · 24/03/2020 12:15

Brilliant quote from Pepys. Where did you find it ?

Popped up on my FB feed from a friend ...

GnomicGnu · 24/03/2020 12:16

I don't think I'm ready to bury my Parmesan just yet.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/03/2020 12:23

"it's hard to see humans being quite so blase about globetrotting in a years time."

Well, vaccine rollout will be in 12-18 months - if all goes to plan
So let's see in 2 years if the public still demand the return of their cheap hols - many holdouts are still planning beach hols this summer and autumn

"Of course the global community could just go Look ! A squirrel ! and return back to how things were"

Looking at all the aggressive denial, from politicians to public

  • the MN thread yesterday that went from "scaremongering" to statement of fact in 90 minutes was gold ! Grin - common sense never even entered the building
DGRossetti · 24/03/2020 12:24

It's quite depressing to think that we are lucky enough to have the wit and warmth of Pepys diary to speak to us over the centuries about some events that have since become lodged in the national psyche - Great Fire of London. Plague. Restoration.

What will be the C-19 legacy for future generations to feast on. A parade of vapid "vloggers" and "influencers" (and their sponsors) burbling platitudes about "litrally, right, my BFF frevah, right". And a sidebar of weird hacks that you won't believe a parade of z-list celebrities use.

I'm starting to understand how the narrator in "The War of the Worlds" felt, as they determined to end it all and rush out into the street awaiting the cold metal of the invaders machine ....

ClashCityRocker · 24/03/2020 12:33

Will there be enough airlines left to make cheap aviation a thing?

BigChocFrenzy · 24/03/2020 12:50

Well, I'm impressed today & reassured ! 👍

Apart from the holy loo roll and sometimes pasta & rice,
the shelves have always remained full here, with normal or shorter queues (my bit of Germany)

Friday evening, for variety, I tried an online supermarket that only sells frozen food
and booked for delivery today 10 am -12:00

Everything was delivered to my door by a lovely friendly bloke, touting all their weekly services in his area, obviously with the job of encouraging new customers to book again.

He was 45 minutes after the slot, but the site warned they were experiencing "exceptional demand" so I'll forgive that Grin

I hope with lockdown that UK shoppers now resume their usual calm

AuldAlliance · 24/03/2020 12:56

I have just managed to get online to do shopping. My Drive slot is Fri 3rd. Avoided fruit & veg from Spain, which I never buy usually as I get all that stuff locally. Now I wondered whether it will cross borders by the end of next week.

Thank God I was running a Brexit-inspired store cupboard.

I've just seen a pull-no-punches email the French honorary consul in Ireland sent to French students who've elected to remain there. Expects ports and airports to close imminently for weeks, maybe months.
Hospital beds v scarce.
1/3 of CV cases in Ireland were aged 15-34 as of March 19th.

The honorary consul is a professor of 18th/19thC French literature who probably though he was signing up to attend a few cocktail parties and sort out the odd stolen passport when he took on the rôle...

BigChocFrenzy · 24/03/2020 13:02

I wonder what the consuls in the UK are warning their people about

  • especially re "Hospital beds v scarce"

Ireland currently has a v low death rate as a % of cases, like Germany
Are they also v organised, wrt testing, monitoring and contact tracing ?

BigChocFrenzy · 24/03/2020 13:07

Consuls in the USA must add warnings about avoiding mad Trumpers and assault rifles

btw, that USA news about the general becoming effectively POTUS if the leadership is knocked out ...

I had wondered if the military had any plans to stop Trump deciding to take the rest of the world with him, if he got a big dose of COVID
OK, now looks like they'd take him out, then take over

DGRossetti · 24/03/2020 13:21

Will there be enough airlines left to make cheap aviation a thing?

Reverse the optics. Will there be enough travellers to make mass air travel viable ? If the cost of travel (because of insurance) makes it a niche hobby, then make a few state airlines and that will be it.

The US of course, will remain unique in that internally air travel will remain the only viable option for many. But that's internally in a country. Not flitting all over international borders.

Since this is a Brexit forum, the possibility of a post C-19 EU becoming a homogenous travel area might be floated. But unlike the US (land borders:2) the EU would have too many adjoining countries to ever consider that.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/03/2020 13:24

Texas Republican Lieu-Gov: "Older people would rather die than let Covid-19 harm US economy"

Trump & Trumpers want to prioritise the economy asap:
profit before people
If they rev up the economy - and Fox & co bury the dead - will this pressure other Western countries to follow ?

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/24/older-people-would-rather-die-than-let-covid-19-lockdown-harm-us-economy-texas-official-dan-patrick

Like a few UK voices, including some MNers, volunteering the old for sacrifice,
rather than lose their SE jobs, small businesses, pensions etc
Elderly MNer on a recent thread saying she'd rather die than lose her savings

BigChocFrenzy · 24/03/2020 13:24

Eventually, say in another year, many countries (with sane leaders) may face a hard decision:
about how long before they have to prioritise the economy, or crash out of being a "developed country" and lose many lives anyway.

DGRossetti · 24/03/2020 13:26

Seen this elsewhere ...

QUOTE

I'm sad to say that I do have the details, and there has been intense discussion about this over the past weeks. To answer your question: "herd immunity" would have been a beneficial outcome to slowing virus growth to a prolonged period of time. It was not a primary outcome.

That said, the official policy was wholly wrong and when all the dust has settled, when all the costs and lives have been counted, people have to make their governments accountable.

I'll tell you what happened in the UK.

Over the past decade, eminent figures in public health developed complex models that would help inform the UK response to a pandemic. The response plan would allow slow spread through a population and a number of deaths that would be deemed acceptable in relation to low economic impact. Timing of population measures such as social distancing would be taken, not early, but at a times deemed to have maximal psychological impact. Measures would be taken that could protect the most vulnerable, and most of the people who got the virus would hopefully survive. Herd immunity would beneficially emerge at the end of this, and restrictions could relax. This was a ground-breaking approach compared to suppressing epidemics. It was an approach that could revolutionise the way we handled epidemics. Complex modelling is a new science, and this was cutting edge.

But a model is only ever as good as the assumptions you build it upon. The UK plan was based on models with an assumption that any new pandemic would be like an old one, like flu. And it also carried a huge flaw - there was no accounting for the highly significant variables of ventilators and critical care beds that are key to maintaining higher survival numbers (www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2020/03/government-documents-show-no-planning-ventilators-event-pandemic).

So, come 2020 and COVID-19 causes disaster in China, Iran and Italy. Epidemiologists and doctors from around the world observe, and learn valuable lessons:

the virus is insidious with a long incubation, any population actions you take will only have an effect weeks later
the virus spreads remarkably quickly and effectively
the virus causes an unusually large proportion of patients to require invasive ventilatory support
early large scale testing, and social distancing measures, are effective at stopping exponential growth
stopping exponential growth is VITAL to preventing your critical care systems from being overwhelmed.

Everyone in the world could see these things. But despite this, very few governments chose to act.

The UK did the opposite of acting. In an act of what I see as sheer arrogance, they chose to do nothing, per the early stages of their disaster plan. There was some initial contact tracing, but this stopped when it was clear that there was significant community spread and exponential growth. And after this? They did not ramp up testing capabilities. They did not encourage social distancing. They did not boost PPE supply, or plan for surge capacity. They ignored advice from the WHO, public health experts in other country; epidemiologists, scientists and doctors in their own. I can tell you with certainty now that they did not even collect regular statistics for how many COVID patients were being admitted to critical care in the UK. They did nothing.

What were they thinking? Maybe that what had happened in China, and was happening in Italy, couldn't possibly happen in the UK, right? It was impossible. The persisted with the original plan with no modification.

Well COVID-19 is not flu. That is perfectly clear. And it was clear that the UK numbers were following, exponentially, the same trend as Italy. But still the government and their advisers stuck to their guns and put out reassuring messages. I would ask here - why did they still think we would be different?

Finally, a team at Imperial informing the government's response put up-to-date COVID-19 data into the historical models that the UK plan was based on (www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf), and predicted in a best case scenario 250,000 deaths and excess of 8x surge capacity of UK intensive cares. They concluded that our approach was wrong, and that "Epidemic suppression is the only viable strategy at the current time".

Where are we now?

The government has instituted a number of measures that they previously called "unscientific", but has not mandated them.
We are far, far into the exponential curve both in deaths and critical care numbers, and there is at least two weeks more growth until any of the half-hearted measures taken might kick in.
We do not have sufficient testing capability for even hospital patients, who sometimes wait days for a test result. There are not enough tests for anyone in the community, or any healthcare workers who might have symptoms.
Hospitals are scrambling to produce surge capacity, and several smaller hospitals in London are now overwhelmed with COVID and out of ventilators.
There is clearly not enough PPE in the country and we are rushing to secure supplies.

Don't believe the UK government propaganda when they say that they are only advancing along the same plan at a faster pace. It is total bollocks. Their plan was wrong, kaput, totally broken. They chose to perform an experiment on an entire population, a trial of 'new epidemic mitigation strategy in UK' vs 'epidemic suppression in rest of the world'. They didn't listen to other experts from all over the world, and in this arrogance they did not observe the lessons or data that was there, plain to see. They have backtracked completely and are now doing what most world public health experts and what the WHO asked them to do in the first place. They've wasted a month, at least.

Will they suffer? Hell no. It will be the vulnerable in the population, the unlucky young, and the medical staff at the front line.

When the final counts return in months or a years time, don't let them get away with it.

midwestspring · 24/03/2020 13:30

Trump doesn't have the power to free up lockdowns, he didn't put them in place in the first place.
Even in Texas Dallas has started shutting down things and there is campaigning in Houston for the same approach. I would suggest it would be likely to happen.
USA citizens do not want to die even if their government would like them to and as C19 takes hold in the USA the clamor fit shutdowns will become louder.
Also businesses here are just making decisions to shut down regardless of Trump.

QueenOfThorns · 24/03/2020 13:45

I can’t believe you fell for the Pepys thing DGR!

DGRossetti · 24/03/2020 13:48

I can’t believe you fell for the Pepys thing DGR!

Is it a hoax ?

I do keep stressing I'm not that bright in real life ...

ListeningQuietly · 24/03/2020 13:49

If Covid is like Flu, it will mutate and return every year.
Immunity will only last short periods unlike something stable like Rubella.
But we are in the situation where irreparable harm is being done to society to slow down deaths which would have largely happened anyway (as per the Imperial modelling).
Borrowing huge sums now to be paid for by the toddlers of today may not be such a great idea with hindsight.

I've also seen the point that any company that takes bailout funds should be barred from paying directors over a certain amount or offering dividends and share options
yes Branson, you do not need a bail out, you need to put your hand in your pocket

DGRossetti · 24/03/2020 13:53

Maybe seasonal flu vaccines weren't such a good idea ...

www.abc.net.au/news/2011-03-04/vaccines-may-have-increased-swine-flu-risk/1967508

QueenOfThorns · 24/03/2020 13:56

Is it a hoax ?

Sorry, yes. If he was writing in 1664, there was no ‘Her Majesty’ on the throne, it was Charles II.

Singasonga · 24/03/2020 13:58

Borrowing huge sums now to be paid for by the toddlers of today may not be such a great idea with hindsight.

Applying proper Keynesian economics to a depression/disaster instead of quantitative easing might actually give those toddlers a chance to have jobs to deal with their future.

ListeningQuietly · 24/03/2020 14:03

Singasonga
What Keynsian stimulus would you suggest
in a globalised world with intangible sales being the biggest category

more over 65's than workers in a growing number of countries
and everybody confined to their homes?

DGRossetti · 24/03/2020 14:06

Sorry, yes. If he was writing in 1664, there was no ‘Her Majesty’ on the throne, it was Charles II.

Good spot Grin

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