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Brexit

Westministenders: Canada Plus and the Transition Phase

992 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2020 19:57

As we approach the 31st January, we slowly tick towards exit and transition.

Things are not yet signed off though the No Deal planning has quietly been stood down with no press release and the government have said they won't talk about trade deals post 31st Jan because the public are bored of them and don't understand.

The new EU president has said that the UK doesn't have time to make a full deal with the EU before 31st December with a deadline which isn't flexible.

We still have no idea what the government plans are. We still have many EU citizens feeling very vulnerable.

Perhaps we should start talking about this rather than Royals for a couple of weeks...

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DGRossetti · 23/01/2020 17:26

I'm pretty sure that the porn pass was dropped by the past and present culture secretary Nicky "don't need your votes, plebs!" Moron in the middle of last year.

www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/16/age_verification_pornblocking_plans_shelved/

In a written statement, Morgan said the government "will not be commencing Part 3 of the Digital Economy Act 2017 concerning age verification for online pornography".

So the act remains (like the song Grin) the same. Just waiting to be revived when appropriate.

The main problem has always been the insistence of the government on inventing a new way for people to demonstrate they are over 18. You would have thought that using a credit card to sign up to a site would be enough, but oh no, not in UK land. (It's the ID card fiasco for the 2010s, really).

Obviously Brexit put the kybosh on a lot of initiatives, so it's no surprise that this one bit the dust. However it's not dead yet, and as soon as the government gets round to it, it will rise like the phoenix once more.

Of course anyone who genuinely thought it had anything to do with safeguarding ... well I have a few bridges for them to peruse. If it was it would have been in place for years by now. In reality it's intended to provide the government with a nicely formatted list of every website every subject in the UK has visited in the past year without the need to bother GCHQ.

Mistigri · 23/01/2020 17:36

Shelving is what governments do when they are too embarrassed to hold up their hands and say "oops sorry it was a terrible idea".

The porn pass ain't coming back. Quite apart from anything else it might cramp the style of some of the new intake, like Jamie "sugar daddy" Wallis Grin.

DGRossetti · 23/01/2020 17:43

The porn pass ain't coming back.

Not in it's original incarnation. Things have moved on. But I have no doubt there will be another "think of the children !" idea that will be rammed through that will achieve the same end.

Frankiestein402 · 23/01/2020 18:27

Internet can be slowed but not shut down - it was designed to survive a nuclear war! (although US could take out bigger chunks of the backbone than anyone else)

However that's not what we are talking about - Google revenue comes primarily from advertisements

So if Google were to refuse tax payments then you might go for the advertisers - eg applying a surcharge to UK companies advertising on Google - or something more creative to block Google ad traffic through UK ISPs.
At the moment Google route every site you access via Google search through Google - that is used to report / charge 'sponsored' sites and to build targeting profiles - again persuading ISPs to interfere in that routing could cut out that channel.
Of course those who care about Google not paying tax could try duckduckgo :)

Mistigri · 23/01/2020 18:42

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't tax internet giants, or that it's impossible. But I'd bet a large wad of cash on Javid not having this balls or the intellectual ability to pilot this particular ship into harbour.

I'd bet a similarly large sum of money on the Saj fans conveniently forgetting that this policy ever existed within a year.

Frankiestein402 · 23/01/2020 18:46

why isn't the UK doing Starlink
Cos we would have to pay someone to launch them? Ditto any galileo replacement. (we're quite good at building satellites still and could certainly build the micro satellites ) We have no shareholding in arianespace and only convoluted interaction via ESA which terminates on brexit.

Brexiteers don't know if ESA is one of the agencies (if any) that they want negotiations with - so we've no hope of knowing.

At the moment it's moot anyway as only spacex have the launch capability to put 60+ satellites up on each launch!

BigChocFrenzy · 23/01/2020 18:54

One of the reasons that the US has become hostile to the EU is that the EU Commission had the ovaries to apply swingeing fines of billions to US tech giants who were breaking the rules

Individual countries are much easier to bully .....

BigChocFrenzy · 23/01/2020 18:55

But I'll be cheering on The Saj if he can manage to do this

Mistigri · 23/01/2020 20:26

Regulating and taxing large international companies takes a lot of clout, resources, expertise and cooperation ie it is a task that is poorly suited for a low-competence chancellor of a country with an isolationist government.

ListeningQuietly · 23/01/2020 20:29

I'm struggling to get a feel of what the Davos crowd think will happen on Brexit
and thus whether the EU will retain links to a free market country at its north

RedToothBrush · 23/01/2020 20:53

Lewis Goodall@lewis_goodall
More to come in but the last run of CLP results mean Nandy and RLB are now level...

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DGRossetti · 23/01/2020 21:12

I saw a tweet somewhere saying that Davos is where billionaires tell millionaires about what the middle class feels.

DGRossetti · 23/01/2020 21:22

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2020/01/23/brexit-2020-everything-you-need-to-know-about-johnson-s-trad

Cool, so everything's sorted right? Brexit is getting done, everything's going back to normal and I never have to talk about trade again.

Oh yeah, no sorry. That's all a lie. We are about to enter the most perilous system-level recalibration of an advanced economy in trading history.

What.

Yeah, all that nightmare of the last four years was the easy part. Now we have to figure out our future trading relationship with the EU.

I saw Boris Johnson on the telly the other day.

Really? That never happens anymore.

No, it was crazy. He just popped up. It was like a Big Foot sighting. Anyway, he seemed to suggest it was all really easy. We'd get it done in a year and then be free to do whatever we want.

Yeah, that's the official narrative. But the reality is very different.

Are you suggesting that the government is making a sustained attempt to deceive the public in order to hide the fact that they have an impossible set of negotiating goals and no competence to deliver them?

Yes, I know. It's hard to believe.

I know what happens now. You start talking about fisheries and regulatory alignment and customs procedures and then I gradually lose the will to live and have to order extremely expensive whisky.

That's right, that's how this works. So here's the thing. The government wants to get the Brexit deal negotiated, ratified and implemented in eleven months, before December 31st. They were entitled to an extension but have decided not to take it. That means the deal is going to have to be proper bare-bones - a completely stripped-down set of negotiating goals.

Like what?

Tariffs, basically. Nothing else. Just eliminate the tariffs.

What are tariffs again?

They're taxes on goods crossing borders. The thing is, most tariffs are already very low. Decades of worldwide tariff-reduction rounds have hammered them down in pretty much every area but agriculture. So it's a very modest bar to set. It also means that services - which are kind of key to our economy - are completely forgotten about. And it does nothing about the real problem areas of trade - alignment, customs checks and rules of origin.

Yeah, that's it. That's where I switch off. I swear these words are like hypnotic suggestions to close down brain function.

Bear with me, they're all pretty simple when you break them down. And the implications of them can smash local economies, which then has a massive political impact. Will people blame Brexit? The government? Or the EU? Remainers? Immigrants? The knock-on effect of these decisions will define our politics for years to come. Which is troubling, because it's not clear the government has any idea what it's doing.

How so?

Take the distinction between goods and services. Sounds simple right? Goods are things and services are, well, services - legal, financial, hairdressing, whatever. But actually that's a crude distinction that doesn't reflect the reality of how businesses work. Car companies, for instance, sell cars. But many of them also often offer the financing for the car, which allows the person buying it to pay in monthly installments. So in that capacity they're actually functioning as a mini-bank. And banking is…

A service.

Exactly. The same is true for loads of companies, like IBM, say, or Hewlett Packard. They sell things. But they also sell services. So even at this very basic level, going for a goods-only deal already has a massive knock-on effect on businesses. If they want to keep on selling the services in Europe, they have to internally restructure to get into the right regulatory regime. Sometimes that'll be big news - they'll close an office or factory. Sometimes it'll be a case of moving staff around or bulking up whatever office they have on the continent to get recognition there, and it'll slip under the radar. But the long-term danger is that all the high-knowledge, proper value-added activity goes to Europe.

Grim.

Yep. And things get uglier when you look at regulations.

Yeah I heard about this. What are they exactly?

Regulations are one of the key aspects of international trade. Countries have different regulatory regimes. So when they trade, people have to show that they are satisfying the requirements of the country the good ends up in. That entails a lot of time and paperwork. Until now, Britain has been part of Europe's regulations regime. Now it wants to completely detach itself. But we're so deeply ingrained in continental trading networks that we can't afford either time or paperwork.

How come?

Basically because of our reliance on a manufacturing system called Just-In-Time. Manufacturing depends on this to keep costs down. It means that you avoid holding a lot of stock. Instead, you get the parts you need, literally, just in time. And we are absolutely locked into this. So for instance BMW makes the engines for its Mini model at Hams Hall just outside Birmingham. But the engine blocks come from France to the UK, where they're drilled and processed, then go to Cologne in Germany for more engineering, then back to the UK for final assembly. GKN in Birmingham also makes the drive line for many cars - this is what transmits power from the engine to the wheels. But it uses components from Spain, Italy, France, Germany and the UK. Millions of components come across the Channel every day to arrive just as they're needed.

Is this primarily a car thing?

No, it goes across the board, in Britain's most successful manufacturing sectors. Take aviation. Nearly 80% of aerospace components manufactured in the UK are exported. And the important part there is in the word 'components'. That's what we do. We don't make the whole plane. As a country, we specialise in wings, landing gear, engines and avionic systems - the electrical equipment in the cockpit. All of that is regulated by the European Aviation Safety Authority (Easa). Everything you see on a plane in Europe, numbering over 5,000 different parts, has been vouched for by them, down to the little trolley serving you drinks when you ask for your fourth rum and Coke and the air steward starts to look at you suspiciously. Oh, and his training is overseen by them too, as is the pilot's, and that of the engineers.

It's the godfather of aviation regulation.

That's right. The industry is clear: it needs to hold Easa tight. And not just Easa. It also wants a close relationship with Reach - Europe's chemical safety regulation system - because they use those chemicals in the manufacturing process. There is zero reason to deviate from this regulatory framework. There are literally no upsides. The UK is not going to start setting international standards for aviation on its own. The trend in the global industry is towards alignment, because everyone wants the same things - a safe product, with fuel efficiency, which is clean and quiet and cheap to run, and which can be traded in a complex supply chain with a minimum of friction.

Can you stay in Easa from outside the EU though?

Sure. It's an EU body, but it has various agreements with non-EU countries. Or you can just align and basically mimic whatever it does. And why not? The industry will make products to those specifications anyway, simply to trade them easily.

So surely that's what we'd do. It sounds insane to do anything else.

Yes it would be insane, wouldn't it? But apparently that's what's going to happen.

You're not serious.

Who knows. Theresa May's administration had pretty much decided to stay in the system. The political declaration for the future relationship she signed with the EU said the UK would "explore the possibility of cooperation" with Easa and then added: "In this context, the United Kingdom will consider aligning with Union rules in relevant areas." But then things got a bit weird. Johnson updated the political declaration when he got his deal and he made some small but quite striking changes.

Like?

Well the line on 'exploring possibilities' stayed, but the following sentence, on alignment, was deleted. That raised a lot of alarm. And then the chancellor, Sajid Javid, told the Financial Times this weekend that "there will not be alignment, we will not be a ruletaker". So right now, if we're to take the government's word for it, no - we're going to pull away, for no reason at all, and at enormous cost. Or they could be lying to sound tough and Brexity. Or they could think it's a negotiating gambit with the EU. Who knows?

OK. So you've now been talking about regulations for what feels like several days. Is that it?

No I'm afraid not. The government also wants out of the customs union. That means it's also a customs problem. Manufacturers will have to fill out two sets of forms - one for regulations, one for customs. In the case of agriculture, they'll also have to satisfy health checks - these are called sanitary and phytosanitary measures. And that takes place on or near the border.

Please tell me this section is over. Hell, please tell me it's all over and the final days are upon us. Anything to escape this relentless carnival of doom.

The worst bit is yet to come, I'm afraid. It's called rules of origin and it is horrible. It's a kind of bureaucracy that kicks in when you have a trade agreement.

How does that make sense? Surely trade agreements are supposed to reduce bureaucracy.

Yep, but they need an insurance policy. So imagine the UK and EU do a trade agreement eliminating tariffs. And then the UK does a separate agreement with the US eliminating tariffs.

Sounds ideal.

Quite. But the EU and US don't have a trade deal eliminating tariffs. So now there is an incentive for the US to ship goods to the UK for entry into the EU as a way of sidestepping the taxes on their exports to Europe, but without having to make any of the concessions a trade deal would involve. Rules of origin checks are how you get around that problem.

How do they work?

The purpose of the rules is to find out where something was made. But the way of doing that changes depending on what kind of good it is. There's different rules in different sectors. Sometimes they measure a country's economic contribution to the product, such as its capital or the labour or intellectual input. There's also different grades of change in the product. You often have to show that the product has transformed from one customs category to another in a substantial way

...

AuldAlliance · 23/01/2020 21:50

V good read, that, DGR

Jason118 · 24/01/2020 07:21

So, to clarify, divergence doesn't mean divergence, it just means the right to diverge if we want to. So we will be a rule taker. So what was the point?

Chancellor tries to reassure firms on post-Brexit trade www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51228818

OverTheRainbowLiesOz · 24/01/2020 07:35

And what about science and research?

Pretty worried about the effects on this sector.

RedToothBrush · 24/01/2020 07:36

Alignment is ridiculous too. We start from a point where the assumption is we follow the rules (but don't have to prove so, so in reality you might not be) but are moving to a system where we will need to prove we follow the rules and have the relevant paperwork to prove it.

We cannot trade with the EU unless we prove we meet their standards. Which we didn't have to do before.

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RedToothBrush · 24/01/2020 07:40

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Excl: Boris Johnson planning to strike Britain’s first post-Brexit trade deal with Japan - dubbed an ‘EU++’ - in a bid to create a bandwagon effect
www.thesun.co.uk/news/10808382/boris-johnson-brexit-trade-deal-japan/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

David Henig @davidheniguk
That's a US trade deal first, an EU trade deal as the priority, and Japan first. And that's just the different government messages this week. When does ambition become confusion? And what's the grand purpose anyway?

Next week we might hear about Australia or New Zealand first...

All very well bragging about the number of trade negotiators. But those negotiators need to know there is a central government machinery which takes consistent decisions, and doesn't undermine communications with negotiating partners through clumsy messaging

It would also help if we could distinguish between "keen to do a trade deal with us" (everyone, if it suits them) and "there is a plan that the UK has and this is how everything fits" (not yet in three and a half years).

They have not got a clue...

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DGRossetti · 24/01/2020 08:27

Excl: Boris Johnson planning to strike Britain’s first post-Brexit trade deal with Japan - dubbed an ‘EU++’ - in a bid to create a bandwagon effect

As I recall, the EU-Japan deal provides that if any other country (e.g. the UK) gets a better deal, then the EU automatically gets the same deal.

So Boris is just giving the EU a leg up ?

Peregrina · 24/01/2020 09:16

Boris Johnson planning? Don't make me larf. If the Sun said that a trade deal was ready for signature, I would say OK.

DGRossetti · 24/01/2020 09:17

Who can read Grin ?

Westministenders: Canada Plus and the Transition Phase
Peregrina · 24/01/2020 09:26

Well hey, why not get rid of the funny Norman French on the passports? It's foreign, isn't it?

TheABC · 24/01/2020 09:56

Hmmm. It's starting to feel like a magic trick. We get distracted with blue passports and the HS2 row. In the meantime.....

I know someone is going to get fucked over by Brexit. The real question is: who.

  • The Brexiteers? "After all, we are out and you don't need to worry your head about those pesky regulations." We will effectively be a rule-taker.
  • Business? "Here's a bare bones tariff deal: now shut up and export to America instead! Oh, we are planning to flood the country with lower-quality exports too. What do you mean, you are moving away?'

So, fewer jobs, tax receipts and a drop in GDP. This can be papered over with borrowing in the short term.

  • The rest of us. "Don't worry, the recession is only a decade-long blip. Oh, we are saving money by selling off the NHS too."

We don't matter, but there's still that pesky constitutional crisis to deal with, in NI and Scotland.

ContinuityError · 24/01/2020 10:53

Fortunately my DS’s brand new passport is still red and thus I can confirm I’m not a hamster.

RedToothBrush · 24/01/2020 11:21

I renewed DS passport LAST week. It arrived Saturday.

Its red.

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