Westministenders: Canada Plus and the Transition Phase

[RedToothBrush]

As we approach the 31st January, we slowly tick towards exit and transition.

Things are not yet signed off though the No Deal planning has quietly been stood down with no press release and the government have said they won't talk about trade deals post 31st Jan because the public are bored of them and don't understand.

The new EU president has said that the UK doesn't have time to make a full deal with the EU before 31st December with a deadline which isn't flexible.

We still have no idea what the government plans are. We still have many EU citizens feeling very vulnerable.

Perhaps we should start talking about this rather than Royals for a couple of weeks...

DH used to work in both London and Berlin. Again cheaper for his company to ship him to Berlin and meet colleagues there then put him up in London.

The problem isnt just the transport cost, its also the accommodation cost which politicians don't seem to have grasped.

But there is a damn good tube line to it.

30 mins to the train station, 2hrs to London, 30 mins to Heathrow. Or 4 hrs by car direct and you don't have to faff about with luggage on trains nor worry about whether you'll have a seat. Then add children.

Why would you go by train / tube?

HS2 would take 30 mins (tops) off my journey time to London.

For the sake of that and cost, explain why I'd go by train rather than drive?

Or fly?

Ultimately the question is why would I travel by train or car to Heathrow rather than fly from Manchester wherever I'm headed because of the travel times and cost?

All this is based on the premise that you have to fly - in Europe train can be a viable alternative.

On my last journey on the Paris to Latour-de-Carol night train, I was in a compartment with an older couple who were travelling by train from Sheffield to Barcelona. I regularly travel from Toulouse to London by train: I can get on the night train at 9pm Sunday and arrive in central London via Eurostar for 9-10am on Monday. It's a fraction of the effort and hassle of flying.

And tube to Heathrow is a PITA with luggage. This is why I always use the train if I can: because you travel city centre to city centre.

On my last journey on the Paris to Latour-de-Carol night train, I was in a compartment with an older couple who were travelling by train from Sheffield to Barcelona. I regularly travel from Toulouse to London by train: I can get on the night train at 9pm Sunday and arrive in central London via Eurostar for 9-10am on Monday. It's a fraction of the effort and hassle of flying.

If you are restricted by the amount of holiday you have or school holidays then travelling by train from the North of England is a nice idea, but not really viable.

I'd personally love to go to Barcelona by train and stop along the way, but how do I do that in a week with a 5 year old in tow?

I've travelled across Europe by train and by bus before. 10 hour trips on an overnight bus are not fun as an adult and sleeper trains are few and far between and again expensive. And I still flew to get to the country I wanted to travel through.

Geography is a problem for the UK in terms of this. We aren't in the centre of the continent. And Eurostar isn't cheap.

Sheffield to Barcelona via train ultimately is something for the retired, not business people nor young families going on holiday.

Tube to Heathrow? Last time I did that there was some kind of incident on the Piccadilly so they stopped my train at a stupidly deep station and shut down the lifts. By the time I’d struggled up the stairs with luggage there were no taxis. Fortunately managed to flag down the Heathrow Express bus, otherwise I’d have been a bit stuck.

Air fares are stupidly low in terms of their actual cost to the planet.
They have radically transformed all our working and leisure expectations, which are now totally unreasonable. It shouldn't be cheaper to fly between two towns in the UK than to take other modes of transport.
FlyBe showed how many people rely on regular flights for their jobs, but it's not sustainable to carry on like that.
Suggestions about banning domestic flights don't seem entirely mad to me - but there have to be viable alternatives.
It's kind of the case in France, although I agree the regional network is in dire need of help. It is not just now in the UK.

I think we're fucked, TBH, because the decisions needed to help even mitigate the climate crisis require such a huge change in lifestyle that no gvmt would have the courage to take them as they'd be out of office asap/never be elected with such policies in their manifesto.

If only there was a sort of collective umbrella organisation that would encourage gvmts to take such steps without being held individually responsible.
Oh, wait...

Air fares are stupidly low in terms of their actual cost to the planet.

And are set to stay that way for the future. Unless you have an answer to replace the millions of jobs worldwide (and hundreds of thousands in the UK) that depend on air travel. From the aerospace industry that makes the planes through the entire infrastructure of airports and maintenance taking in airlines, agents, and all the people they support.

It's a case of "if you want to get there, you wouldn't start here".

All of which said, I have already predicted that in 50 years time, people will look at private car ownership as a weird aberration in the course of history. I have a feeling they may say the same about everyday air travel. Another legacy for our grandchildren.

Not all historical aberrations are bad though. We can feel some pride in the fact that come 2070, people won't believe anyone used to smoke.

I have no answer.
(Other than repeating that I think we're fucked.)

If there were to be a world conference of the top tourist targets destinations, and they all agreed to "do a Venice" and start charging tourists a fucktonne to try and discourage air travel ... I wonder how it would go down.

Although would people be willing to sacrifice their gap years for the planet ?

If you are restricted by the amount of holiday you have or school holidays then travelling by train from the North of England is a nice idea, but not really viable.

Sure, there are sometimes reasons to fly but I think often people just don't even consider or are not aware of the alternatives.

From where I live, travelling to London for a Monday morning meeting by public transport + plane takes longer than by train (because you can't avoid an overnight hotel) and the cost is similar. But I'm the only person I know who routinely takes the train.

HS2 answers the wrong question.

Rail franchising has fragmented the network so that train slots are allocated to make maximum profit for the local franchisee
not to make best use of the network.

Freight trains used to run at night
returning to that model would free up capacity

Insisting on proper weekend and bank holiday services would move leisure travellers to those times

Allowing cities other than London to integrate and coordinate their trains, buses and ferries would reduce pressure

Investing in basic repairs and rolling stock north of Birmingham would reduce journey times and allow the northern powerhouse to do so

GOOD wifi and phone connectivity on public transport north of Birmingham should be a priority

none of those needs are met by HS2

Could electric or hybrid planes be an option in the future ?

Don't think so frumpety because of the sheer amount of energy required.

But hydrogen-fuelled trains and ships are probably coming.

DH can fly to Paris from the North for business at half the price of catching a train from here to London and then London to Paris. The time is actually about the same as he has to drive to Manchester to catch a flight and then get a taxi in Paris , although the taxi fare probably means the journey actually costs about the same, they are not cheap !

Good post by Listening

Even with current plans HS2 won't be there in time to help with anything and the chances of meeting the planned timetable, scope and budget are zero. (cf crossrail) The capacity demand that HS2 is intended to serve is 'predicted' using models that have not considered the changes in behaviour we have to make.

Obviating the need to travel means employing local resource. (The major consultancies in this country at least always have resources crossing on the m6/m1 - total nonsense.)

Yes Skype et al don't cut it today - that's why we need to kick off major programs focused on remote interaction now - major software innovation can be delivered in 5 years - physical innovation is still in the 10-20 years plus.

If you want your 'new relative' to have a reasonable life you/we have to start changing now. We have a climate emergency.

Could electric or hybrid planes be an option in the future ?

It's not just about the travelling (for touristy bits). It's the damage done once you get there.

We've had the age of Exploration, the age of mass emigration (which is someones immigration), the age of mass passenger transit. Maybe it's coming to an end ?

"Jess Philips has quit the leadership race"

....just after she did the MN Webchat today !

No, MN is not guilty;
it wasn't the mauling by the GC feminist gangbangers, it was because she didn't get any nominations from Labour affiliates or trade unions
She only scraped in the MP nominations with 23

I don't know how popular she was with Labour members or in the country, but she didn't have enough support at the "senior" levels to be a contender.

Meanwhile, Starmer is now definitely on the final ballot, after he became the first candidate to be backed by a second major trade union, in his case USDAW

This helped scupper Phillips, as USDAW had been her best chance of a union nomination

HS2 is getting cancelled. Matter of time. Money is needed elsewhere...

I really hope Labour end up with Starmer, anyone else and the tories are in for 10years probably will be regardless

At least with Rebecca Long Bailey is a lot of people will see the car crash coming. I'm not sure they'll see it coming with Starmer...