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Brexit

Westministenders: Canada Plus and the Transition Phase

992 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2020 19:57

As we approach the 31st January, we slowly tick towards exit and transition.

Things are not yet signed off though the No Deal planning has quietly been stood down with no press release and the government have said they won't talk about trade deals post 31st Jan because the public are bored of them and don't understand.

The new EU president has said that the UK doesn't have time to make a full deal with the EU before 31st December with a deadline which isn't flexible.

We still have no idea what the government plans are. We still have many EU citizens feeling very vulnerable.

Perhaps we should start talking about this rather than Royals for a couple of weeks...

OP posts:
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jasjas1973 · 20/01/2020 20:35

Listening i read it and thought "it will never happen in the UK" let alone in Birmingham.

Post anything about cycling on Mumsnet and 80% of the replies will be along the lines of "Run the xxxx's of our roads"

There is a very famous cycle race in Ghent (Ghent-Wevelgem) catering for both professional men and women racers, off road cyclo x is also extremely popular... the same cannot be said for the UK.

We no longer cycle on the roads, even country lanes, because its too fucking dangerous and we live in Cornwall.

AuldAlliance · 20/01/2020 20:42

There are huge geographical constraints all around France (cf the Millau viaduct I mentioned earlier and the A75 leading up steep hills to the Larzac plateau. There are 90° bends...).
I guess they tend to be viewed as challenges to be solved, whereas expropriating homeowners to lay a railway line or motorway in the UK is a political risk.
The Notre Dame des Landes airport shenanigans is an interesting case study.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/01/2020 21:04

jas One of the many things I enjoy about life in Germany is that everywhere has cycle lanes built alongside the roads and I can cycle comparatively safely
The Netherlands is great too for cyclists

I'm visually disabled and can no longer drive, so being able to cycle anywhere (within my energy range !) makes life so much easier
And I love being in the open air and cycling, so it's win-win

BigChocFrenzy · 20/01/2020 21:05

An efficient and well-designed public transport system is a big help too

BigChocFrenzy · 20/01/2020 21:06

I'm always surprised at how cheap the trains and buses are in Germany
Of course it must be subsidised, but there is no dispute among the main parties about paying for this

TheABC · 20/01/2020 21:08

@jasjas1973, I would never say never, especially in the Midlands. Birmingham has air quality standards to meet, a part-pedestrianised centre and the city is sufficiently big enough to support transport infrastructure.

jasjas1973 · 20/01/2020 21:22

@TheABC Sure but we are far more likely to go the US way and just keep trying to build more capacity and wait for the inevitable move to hybrid/EV vehicles.
We are a fat and lazy nation, most people couldn't get on a bike let alone ride one for a few miles.
Next time you go to the supermarket check out the number of people waddling along!
The UK govt has ignored the ECJ repeatedly over air quality and with only their own yet to be appointed environmental protection body to deal with, it will be ignored still further.

DGRossetti · 20/01/2020 21:24

saw this posted with a caption:

Brexit Party MEP laments the fact that the UK will be unrepresented in EU Parliament in future.

You are witnessing an almost-joining-of-the-dots.

Westministenders: Canada Plus and the Transition Phase
jasjas1973 · 20/01/2020 21:24

Yes agree @BCF cycling in europe is a real pleasure, it just isn't in the UK anymore and thats due to our love affair with the car and intolerance.

malylis · 20/01/2020 21:29

DG that is comical.

This is what you voted for.

I have a feeling that phrase is going to be used a lot in the next 5 years.

ListeningQuietly · 20/01/2020 21:31

jasjas
The cost of the Ghent project is a key factor for many cities.
York are actively looking at pedestrianising inside the walls very soon.
Brighton will pedestrianise much of the lanes by the end of the year.
If Birmingham are Brave (and tight fisted) they could do it very fast.

Bigchoc
subsidised public transport ....
In Vienna a travel pass is E365 a year.
Parking in the historic area is around E50 a day
so the city does not have to devote huge areas to cars, has less pollution and congestion
AND
dirt cheap Ubahn flattens the housing market variances around the city
and finally, having all of the transport busy and in use all day and night reduces vandalism etc
I am sure the city does subsidise the travel, but it will be by a lot less than we Brits assume

RedToothBrush · 20/01/2020 21:49

Will Jennings @drjennings
A bit of rather belated analysis of the #GE2019 vote: when you plot the size of Conservative and Labour majorities (in % terms), it is striking how inefficient the Labour vote has become since 2005.

Labour is increasingly piling up votes in its safe seats, whereas the Conservative majorities tend to increase at a fairly incremental rate.

This is interlinked with the dynamics of geographical polarisation that @ProfStoker and I have identified... it also is consistent with Jonathan Rodden's arguments in 'Why Cities Lose' on the disproportionate urban clustering of the vote for left parties.

For the UK, this pattern (for Labour, 'the claw of doom' via @benwansell) reflects changes in the demographics of constituencies and of voting behaviour, but also strategies of the parties.

Stephen Bush @stephenkb
This chart sums up what I wrote about this morning about why Johnson may be better served doing symbolic things to "rebalance" the economy rather than actually rebalancing the economy:
www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2020/01/why-relocating-house-lords-york-would-be-smart-move-boris-johnson
Why relocating the House of Lords to York would be a smart move by Boris Johnson
The government has more of an interest in appearing to improve the state of northern constituencies than in actually doing so.

Why did the Conservatives lose St Albans? Because it’s rich in the demographics that the party has long struggled with, which both Theresa May and Boris Johnson made a point of moving away from: social liberals, graduates and people under the age of 40. That didn’t matter because Johnson’s strength is among voters who are socially conservative, don’t have degrees, and over 40 – who are more numerous in Bishop Auckland in Country Durham, than St Albans.

Or, let’s take Wakefield, a constituency that the Conservatives won from Labour, and Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford, another Yorkshire constituency that Labour almost lost. There was a much, much bigger swing against Labour in the latter constituency than the former. Why? Because Wakefield’s economy is growing quickly and it is retaining more of its young people. You can see this pattern across the UK, whether in seats like Reading East and Canterbury, which Labour held, or seats like Reading West, where Labour lost but did much better than the national swing would suggest.

BCF I think you've touched on this before but from a different angle - how towns are aging and becoming more blue.

Thus it's better for the Tories to keep these towns shitty so they don't retain their young and the youth vote stacks up in cities... Or so the logic Stephen Bush has goes.

And its hard to argue against tbh.

Westministenders: Canada Plus and the Transition Phase
Westministenders: Canada Plus and the Transition Phase
OP posts:
Miljea · 20/01/2020 21:53

Sorry to hark back a bit on this thread- but I'm genuinely disappointed to see the Other Place drop 'Brexit'. Though many posts there were embarrassingly puerile (and sometimes it was a bit of a shock to come back here and meet reason, well constructed argument and some erudition!); jingoistic and Little Englander.

Obeying Cumjob in dropping 'Brexit' from the narrative is both pathetic, wheedling and a bit chilling.

HateIsNotGood · 20/01/2020 22:10

Miljea - please reserve your disappointment - it's not dropping Brexit, and certainly no one asfik is 'following orders'; call it the 1st stage of post-Brexitism. It's a 'transition'.

I'm not here 'plopping' or anything similar - all I can understand is that in the immediate circumstance there are some very 'raw' feelings - some very explicitly caused by the 'uncertainty' - not by Leave or Remain - but by the 'uncertainty' alone.

At least now, whilst there is still a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot less than there was and those most affected by it now have something to get a foothold or grasp on.

I hope that it won't be too long before a few of us get 'over' the unecessary and get together over the necessary.

Miljea · 20/01/2020 22:49

'Transition' to what? Being okay with so much that a Brexit mindset stands for?

Not quite ready for that 'coming together'.

TheABC · 20/01/2020 22:54

@HateIsNotGood. What necessary topics did you have in mind? There's been some great bonding moments on LinkedIn recently with pirates v pasties v beer as country splits instead of Brexit .Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 20/01/2020 23:17

We'll never bond while Brexiters regard criticism of the Tory Brexit mess as "unnecessary"

and while the only "necessary" thing is for Remainers to produce ideas to sort out that mess, since the Brexiters can't

HateIsNotGood · 20/01/2020 23:25

Ok - obviously things are still a bit 'raw' here too. I'll save opening The Dive Bar Next Door for a later date.

Peace and Love To All.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/01/2020 23:33

red I'd referenced the study that analysed Tory gains in the deindustrialised (mostly by Thatcher) areas

  • many of the young had fled, leaving a much higher % of predominately Tory older voters.

The recent young seem to be staying left or centrist as they age, which didn't happen with previous generations

Even with inspired boundary redrawing, this demographic trend would eventually wither away Tory power if it continues

BUT ....
relying on demographics alone could mean Labour waiting 20 years for power
AND
the Tories might do one of their famous U-turns at the crucial time and dump the old for the young.
Their overriding characteristic is normally not ideology, but retaining power at all costs

BigChocFrenzy · 20/01/2020 23:37

Brexiters themselves need to sort out the mess they have got the country into

Like most Remainers, I've no intention of cleaning the steaming poop that Brexit has done on the nation's economy

tobee · 21/01/2020 00:31

Yaha BCF! 👍 Smile

midwest · 21/01/2020 00:41

Yup, darn right.
They've broken it, they can fix it.
It is nothing to do with me.

ContinuityError · 21/01/2020 07:09

There's been some great bonding moments on LinkedIn recently with pirates v pasties v beer as country splits instead of Brexit

Really? God, LinkedIn is now just Facebook for people with jobs.

lonelyplanetmum · 21/01/2020 07:28

Random: Looking at SM yesterday the strength of the psychological aspect struck me.

Remain or rejoin now has a huge advantage of being the anti establishment position.

The Leave vote sir of harnessed a natural tendency to mistrust combined with huge misunderstandings coming from years of tabloid manipulation. This fed the ' they' are treating us badly train of thought. "They"
have it in for us.

Well, the 'they' now are the oven ready dealers (who do not really have a deal at all). The mistrust now can only go one way- towards the establishment Brexit position.

This reversal and redirection of mistrust is now in the very early stages of starting to show. It is creeping in within the Brexit camp - so that there is something to oppose and rail against come 1 Feb.

Songsofexperience · 21/01/2020 07:47

This reversal and redirection of mistrust is now in the very early stages of starting to show. It is creeping in within the Brexit camp - so that there is something to oppose and rail against come 1 Feb.

Yes, but February is way too early for that.
IMO the most effective strategy for the opposition is to sort itself out first (which should have happened last summer but didn't). Give this government a few months to start implementing its manifesto and show its hand re EU + US. I'm not saying that because I've suddenly turned Tory. I think the single biggest criticism used against labour+ remain parties was deliberate obstruction/ being undemocratic. (Playing the martyr card). Giving the government a proper 'honeymoon' will kill that argument. Next summer will be the time to hold them to account.

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