Arghhhhhh "freedom of movement"

[TorysSuckRevokeArticle50]

So sick of hearing the Tories and Brexit Party misinterpret 'freedom of movement'.

It is not Freedom of Movement for all EU citizens to any country in the EU.

The correct name of the legislation is Freedom of Movement OF WORKERS.

The fact that the UK misinterpreted the requirement and put no regulations in place for migrants is a UK issue not the fault of the EU.

Many EU country's have regulations and processes in place that mean an EU national moving to the country must already have a job in place, or find one within 3 months or they have to leave.

Our government choose not to instate such regulations or monitoring. They can't fucking complain about it after the fact and try to blame the EU.

From the European Commission document ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457 *
*
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Who can benefit from this freedom?*
• Jobseekers, i.e. EU nationals who move to another EU country to look for a job, under certain conditions
• EU nationals working in another EU country
• EU nationals who return to their country of origin after having worked abroad.
• Family members of the above.
Rights may differ somewhat for people who plan to be self-employed, students, and retired or otherwise economically non-active people. For more information on these groups, see Your Europee_.

I like your ambition OP...
On these boards, people are generally clued up about FOM but 'out there's many don't even know which citizens/ countries are eligible for FOM (thinking back on the confusion between refugees/ asylum seekers and those exercising FoM).

Bloody autocorrect. Meant to say 'out there'

Because it suits them. Look at how many lifelong Labour voters are predicted to change to the Tories. All because of Brxit and fear of immigration. It is the most frustrating and soul destroying thing

The fact that the UK misinterpreted the requirement and put no regulations in place for migrants is a UK issue not the fault of the EU.

Yup. See also: “Exit checks? Whassat?”

They can't fucking complain about it after the fact and try to blame the EU.

They can and they do. It's been such a good excuse.

"Many EU country's have regulations and processes in place that mean an EU national moving to the country must already have a job in place, or find one within 3 months or they have to leave."

but would this make a difference to how people feel? If the job is one where there is an actual shortage and necessity, e.g. medical, then I can see that people might feel differently. But if all this is saying is that you can have a job as marketing manager for a hotel firm in place, I can imagine a lot of people saying "but a British national can fill that job".

I think the point of this, is that successive Governments haven't had reliable knowledge about EU immigration.

EU states can't remove EU citizens except under very specific circumstances.

In fact it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the U.K. is already the most enthusiastic remover of EU citizens (often illegally - for eg the U.K. is known to have removed vulnerable people who have already acquired a right of residence under FoM).

Inside the Schengen zone states don't and can't know which EU citizens are in their territory; they can only know which ones are resident (if they have a registration scheme, which not all EU states do).

AutumnRose so are you saying that employers shouldn't be allowed to employ the best staff they can get but should instead give the job to a British citizen even if they are not as good? Maybe British workers should look at why they aren't getting those jobs. (I am not talking about NMW type jobs that can't be filled by British workers here)

pointy as I said, I can see it where there are shortages or a necessity.

With something like what I do - I won't state it but it's pretty generic with around average wage - I think there's probably lots of us who can do an equally good job, maybe in a different style, sure. But I doubt I'm better than anyone else who got an interview.

There are squillions of workers like myself. Honestly I wonder if I got the job because I ticked the non-white woman box; I was a bit lacking in some of the experience they wanted.

anyhoo - am I saying they shouldn't be able to recruit outside the UK for a job like mine? Yes. I am.

If I was an oncology specialist, I could understand getting job offers from around the world and would be welcomed, quite rightly. But I'm not.

AutumnRose1 after Brexit you will have what you want anyway with regards to all immigration. Even as it stands there are many jobs which will not attract a work permit and this is clearly stated. Brexit will solve all your problems neatly.

In the current situation, the problem I see with not allowing employers to recruit from abroad (which already has limits placed on it for non-EU workers) is that it gives employers the right to discriminate on the basis of nationality. So what do we do with regards to foreign nationals who are already living and working here (People like me)? Do we keep current protections? How will it work in areas like the NHS (where I work) where recruitment isn't CV based and where identifying characteristics are not visible to people who shortlist for interview?

It's a giant can of worms. And I really prefer a world where people can come and work anywhere based on competency. Your position smacks of nativism.

pointythings

Do you feel it’s wrong for (as an example) Australia to have a points system?

AutumnRose yes, I do. If someone wants to trek to Australia to go for a job interview (with all the associated expense and risk of not getting the job) then they should be able to do so. Australia's immigration policy isn't one we should aspire to - their treatment of refugees is downright disgusting.

People should compete on merit. Merit should include being able to speak the language associated with the job with sufficient fluency to do the job to the required standard as well as having all the required skills and qualifications.

I've never obtained a job in the UK on anything other than merit - I wouldn't want a Dutch employer to give me a job based on my Dutch nationality if I wasn't the best person for the job.

“ I've never obtained a job in the UK on anything other than merit “

I hope I haven’t, but ticking the non-white woman box has made me wonder, especially the post Blair years.

But returning to the OP point, I do think most people understand freedom of movement for workers.

I am not at all sure that most people understand the rules of freedom of movement for workers at all. I know far too many people who genuinely believe that the majority of EU nationals come over here to claim benefits, get preferential treatment when it comes to housing allocation and commit more crimes than UK nationals. Oddly enough - or maybe not - I live in a very white area with a very low number of immigrants. These people feel free to say things like the statements above to me, because I sound 100% English. I despair.

I don't think most people understand immigration or FoM (which is not strictly speaking immigration).

Australian law is in some respects more liberal than U.K. law. Annual immigration is much higher than in the U.K. relative to population size and recent immigrants are a much larger proportion of the population. They also settle more refugees (though their treatment of asylum seekers is disgusting of course).

I sometimes wonder what it is that xénophobes like about Australian immigration policy and have concluded that they actively approve of the inhuman way that asylum seekers are treated, but otherwise do not know very much about Australian immigration policy.

But returning to the OP point, I do think most people understand freedom of movement for workers.

Well, it seems the ones who have bought into the 'too many foreigners here claiming our benefits' rhetoric have NOT understood it.

I hope I haven’t, but ticking the non-white woman box has made me wonder, especially the post Blair years.
Where I work (3000+ employees) job applications have a page for people to tick ethnic origin, sexuality, explain any criminal convictions etc. This is for monitoring purposes. When the forms are circulated to the people doing the shortlisting, this page is not included. Names are not included, either. So it's impossible to select on basis of race, sexuality etc. The only prejudice this system does not eliminate is good old agism. Having O Levels marks you out as being from a certain generation, for example, as does having a work history that stretches back beyond a certain point.

Smaller companies may work in a different way, but I'm sure you'll have got your jobs on merit, Autumn, rather than because you ticked a box.

Oh goodness, it never occurred to me anyone would interpret “tick the box“ literally! I meant when I show up for interview and they see the colour of my skin!

My frustration is that we keep seeing and hearing all these slogans and propaganda about how leaving the EU will prevent EU residents just wandering into the UK seemingly in droves and setting up on benefits.

That's not the case at all.

With regard EU citizens coming in and taking our jobs (always reminds me of the 'They took our jobs' episode of South Park) that's rubbish too.

I have worked in organisations that run Employability courses and interventions and the vast majority of long term unemployed people who were taking those courses either: Couldn't afford childcare that would enable them to work enough hours to equal the benefits, didn't want to work, thought they were above the roles they were capable of doing or were not capable of working full stop.

For a standard role, not a sweat shop or illegal under the counter job. If a company is advertising a role what benefit is there in choosing an EU citizen over a UK one, except capability? They can't pay the EU citizen less, or work them harder.

Inside the Schengen zone states don't and can't know which EU citizens are in their territory; they can only know which ones are resident Unless it's Belgium where you can't do anything legally without them knowing you are there!

EU states can't remove EU citizens except under very specific circumstances Tell that to the Belgians who said they would deport me if I didn't follow my husband's status. I pointed out FoM as we are a member state and was told that Belgian law will always override EU law. This situation arose as they refused to give dh diplomatic status for a year, though how they can decide who a country appoints as a diplomat is beyond me.

I pointed out FoM as we are a member state and was told that Belgian law will always override EU law.

Doesn't that highlight the fact that EU states are sovereign?
No need for that brexit nonsense, is there?

I pointed out FoM as we are a member state and was told that Belgian law will always override EU law.

the point is that under EU law, an EU country isn't allowed to treat a member of a different EU state differently to a citizen of that nation. For eg: in Germany everyone has to register where they live within 2 weeks of moving in. That is the same for everyone - but previously the rules for non-Germans were slightly different. Once that rule came in - there was no need for non-German EU-Nationals to have a residency permit. (non-EU nationals do need different paperwork),

When it comes to employing people, an EU National has to be treated the same way as a German national (given equal qualification caveats etc) and only if a non-eu person can be found to fill the role then a 3rd party national can be considered

etc etc. So in the above case, it isn't necessarily that Belgian law overrides EU law, it is that EU law says EU nationals have to be treated the same as Belgians. If they have to register, you do. If they don't - you don't.

sorry forgot to say: diplomats are difficult. Each country has to suggest to the host country who the diplomats might be but the host country doesn't have to accept them. I've had friends in the foreign service have to change stations because the host country won't allow them.