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Brexit

Brexiteers: please read this.

79 replies

Dusty01 · 30/10/2019 18:46

A.A. Gill (Sunday Times journalist and food critic) writing about Brexit before his death in Dec 2016.

“It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”
It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”
Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.
We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.
The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.
And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.
All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.
There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them.
The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness — well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? — to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.
Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty
We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.
Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”
When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”
Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.
Nine out of 10 economists say ‘remain in the EU’
You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.
Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.
The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.
No time for walls: the best of Europe, from its music and food to IM Pei’s pyramid at the Louvre, depends on an easy collision of cultures
There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job — food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.
The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.
Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?
I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.”

OP posts:
SingingLily · 31/10/2019 12:53

So you made "a poorly researched, foolish impulsive last minute decision" to vote Leave, OP. I believe in universal suffrage so it's your democratic right to vote how you wish, for whatever reasons you choose. But this?

But isn't this whole Brexit thing pompous? So the tone of this piece fits the subject.

How can how can you dismiss someone's democratic right to choose self-determination pompous? That's the sort of thing A A Gill was sneering at (yes, I read your opening post before commenting).

For the record, I read as many for-or-against arguments as I could prior to the referendum: Telegraph and Guardian, Spectator and News Statesman, FT and Handelsblatt, even Le Monde and Le Figaro (French is my second language). I thought about the huge fundamental difference between our unwritten constitution and common law, and EU rules-based written approach. I considered the imbalances and fault lines inherent in any currency union without fiscal union and the horrifying impact the Eurozone dissonance was having on the Club Med countries, particularly Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Ireland, and particularly the hopes and life dreams of a whole generation of young people. I looked at our inability to write our own laws and decide our own taxation without reference to 27 other countries. I even - clutch your pearls now in horror - thought deeply about why countries formerly under the thumb of Soviet Russia might want to risk their new and hard-won independence by handing it over to the EU and why the UK, home of the Magna Carta and a proud history as a nation of inventors and innovators, should do the same.

And after all that research (and for the benefit of any Remainers who might be tempted to post goady little questions saying "give me an example" or "what is your evidence for that" - toddle off and do your own research. It's freely available), I thought:

Nah. Better off out.

I believe in self-determination and a strong democracy. I believe there should be a direct link between the governed and those who govern. I believe that those who do govern do so only with the legitimacy of our consent and if they fail to do what they promised, I want to be able to vote to remove them.

To be fair, at the time I cast my vote, I didn't realise what a third-rate self-serving shower of politicians we had. But still. They are about to face their reckoning and not a day too soon.

And, possibly for the first time in my life, I found myself agreeing wholeheartedly with Tony Benn who not only said that Parliament is not sovereign, the people are sovereign and we lend this to Parliament every five years, but also:

"In the course of my life I have developed five little democratic questions. If one meets a powerful person, ask them five questions: “What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.

His conclusion was that the EU was not a democratic system. And I agree.

Epicwaffle · 31/10/2019 12:55

Saying this,

Maybe that's why I don't interpret this as sneering. I think the writer is just personifying an attitude. Which is the Brexit one.

After saying this,

When I read the Brexit Arms I always envisage lots of women like Amanda in "Motherland" talking.

Might explain why you struggle to recognise sneering.

Epicwaffle · 31/10/2019 12:59

👏 👏 👏 @SingingLily

ForeverFaff · 31/10/2019 13:21

@SingingLily has hit the nail on the head. I'm honestly stunned that people can look at the EU, and how it is run, and consider it superior to our own system!?

We might have idiots in power at times, but at least we can remove them.
We have handed our power as a people not to a government who can enact our wishes, but a government who can merely promise to ask for what we want. And are often told no.

Wimbledonna · 31/10/2019 13:30

Great post Lily.
"What oft was thought but ne'er so well expressed"

BeerandBiscuits · 31/10/2019 13:31

He seems to be saying “well it works for me!” from a position of enormous privilege.
Like the other Remain lovies, all so pleased with themselves and their lives. Horrified that the ignorant great unwashed should have any power to change things.

Dusty01 · 31/10/2019 13:34

"For all his imaginative ability though, I think Gill’s weakness is his failure to even imagine the life of someone for whom this Union doesn’t work and in who’s interests it is designed not to. His further failure is that he seems to chastise others for having the temerity to even want something different."

Louise: How does this Union, in your day to day life, not work for you?

and when you say "even want something different" - in what way is leaving the EU going to concretely make your life different? (apart from the obvious negative ways)

OP posts:
Dusty01 · 31/10/2019 13:38

"the other Remain lovies" - but this is sneering BeerandBiscuits.

Brexit Arms and the Leave responses here are littered with sneering.

"all so pleased with themselves and their lives" - I don't think that's the case at all. Why do the well off/affluent want Brexit? Because they are the ones that will profit from it. It will be all the rest of us that suffer.

OP posts:
DustyDiamond · 31/10/2019 13:39

Excellent post SingingLily 👏👏👏👏

Dusty01 · 31/10/2019 13:40

"We might have idiots in power at times, but at least we can remove them."

ForeverFaff: I don't think Boris and the current government are simply idiots. They are dangerous autocrats. Dictators in the making - if not already there. And we will not (if they are voted in again) be able to remove them.

OP posts:
MorrisZapp · 31/10/2019 13:43

I think it's absolutely brilliant. I don't agree with his opinion but he does make me nostalgic, for a time when journalists were expected to be able to turn out a properly crafted paragraph.

Peak blighty, I love it. Think the Scottish nats feel the same way.

Dusty01 · 31/10/2019 13:56

"I believe in self-determination and a strong democracy. I believe there should be a direct link between the governed and those who govern. I believe that those who do govern do so only with the legitimacy of our consent and if they fail to do what they promised, I want to be able to vote to remove them.

conclusion was that the EU was not a democratic system. And I agree."

Do you honestly believe, Singing Lily, that we currently have a strong democracy in this country? Do you believe that the UK, in the hands of Boris and his government, is/will be more of a democratic system? How will we be able to remove Boris if he gets in again? Wait for 5 years - whilst the NHS, our schools etc crumble even more? What kind of state are our lives going to be in? What effect will this have on our children?

I am more worried about those that are governing this country at the moment. I too voted to leave the EU thinking that it was not a democratic system. But it frightens me that we might soon be again in the hands of Boris and his gang of despots - with no outside protection. It frightens me knowing what they will do to this country and how we will ALL (bar the very rich) suffer as a result.

OP posts:
ForeverFaff · 31/10/2019 14:08

Of course our system is democratic! The thing is though, that you don't like what the majority have voted for. You disagree with the public, and therefore want to further push their hands away from power.
Most people want brexit. Most people are conservative.
This might 'shock' you, but you need to suck it up and learn to live in a democracy.

SingingLily · 31/10/2019 14:12

I too voted to leave the EU thinking that it was not a democratic system.

No, OP. You voted to leave "as a protest vote against Austerity. I made a poorly researched, foolish impulsive last minute decision. I was duped by false advertising and fake information from the Leave side. I realise that there are other people who voted Leave for similar reasons and have also changed their minds".

Make your mind up.

I have doubts about your sincerity so I'm going to take my working class, lowbrow, make-up-free NHS face and go and do something more productive.

Before I go - thank you, fellow Leavers. Smile

Epicwaffle · 31/10/2019 14:15

@SingingLily

right choice! I give up here too! There’s always a drink for you at the arms should you want it. WineWink

SingingLily · 31/10/2019 14:21

Thank you, Epicwaffle! I might see you in there. The second round's on me....

LouiseCollins28 · 31/10/2019 15:30

"how does it not work for me?" Great question, well lets consider what I think a union that was working for me would be doing, and see how close we get.

A Union that works for me would: be open to allow its consumers to be buying products from around the world without penalising the makers through the application of tariffs and other barriers to discriminate against non-EU producers

A Union that works for me would: only legislate where it absolutely has to, e.g. if good domestic standards are democratically agreed, that's fine, no EU law needed

A Union that works for me would: Ensure that the members of the club follow club rules, e.g. not running deficits larger than they should, and if they don't that member should be kicked out

A Union that works for me would: have law making powers resting only with directly elected officials, i.e. there'd be no role for EU Commissioners

A Union that works for me would: not have its commission presidency determined by back-room deals

A Union that works for me would: control its external borders e.g. to prevent people seeking asylum/refugee status from China or Vietnam dying in the back of Bulgarian refrigerated lorry.

A Union that works for me would: pick one location for it's parliament and bloody stick to it!

A Union that works for me would: have no need of a foreign policy or an army, because it isn't a country

DustyDiamond · 31/10/2019 15:57

@SingingLily BrewCake

Agreed with all your posts

There's a hint of the 'remainer now' stuff which has been peddled quite a bit on twitter etc

'Duped leaver has epiphany'

SingingLily · 31/10/2019 16:30

😂DustyDiamond. I'm not on Twitter so that explains much.

They don't realise that true Leavers can't even spell epiphany? Coz we're all old, thick, racist, xenophobic knuckle-draggers wot believed the Big Red Bus (or fell for Cambridge Analytica's "duh, simples" algorithms on Facebook?)

DustyDiamond · 31/10/2019 16:43

😂

ForeverFaff · 31/10/2019 19:05

At least you have individual digits to oppose @SingingLily , my fingers are all webbed wot wiv being such a backwards inbred ninny.

Wheat2Harvest · 31/10/2019 19:09

Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face

Which also means that she has paid her way in life and paid a lot of tax into the system.

It's also a very nasty way of describing someone who doesn't share your idea of political utopia.

SingingLily · 31/10/2019 19:15

😂ForeverFaff

Round here in Leavesville, crime scene investigators don't even bother showing up. No point.

No dental records, you see, and we all share the same DNA.

HivesMind · 31/10/2019 21:06

@SingingLily really well written response....but I am genuinely interested in your reply to OP's question as to whether we can get rid of our own politicians any easier, really, than the EU and if they are actually any more under our control? I've always been interested in both sides of the Brexit debate and would like to hear your feelings on this...

HateIsNotGood · 31/10/2019 21:27

O gosh thank you OP. If it wasn't for you posting Gill's article I would never have seen the error of my ways. Thank you so much for enlightening me, I am truyl grateful.

Not.