Probably a very dumb question, but why have the EU said there must be a completely open border

[Trewser]

When there are border checks between France and Switzerland? I am fully aware that I'm missing something.

I'm sure i could have researched it all myself, and perhaps i should have. But the dcs were talking about it at the breakfast table so i went for the easy option!

I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with asking a question at any stage.

This is worth watching from Patrick Kielty.

I think it's generally worth taking people at face value until they prove that they are posting in bad faith
This is true Misti and thank you for the reminder- I am guilty of judging first.
Apologies Trewser.

www.rte.ie/news/brexit-countdown/2019/1001/1079488-border-explainer/

This is a great explainer for kids and adults alike

I could be wrong but it seems like one of the tough things about this issue is that the border isn't just a practical thing, it's a symbolic and emotional thing.

Rationally, the RoI and Northern Ireland ARE different countries. And if Northern Ireland leaves with the rest of the UK, it makes sense to put a hard border across there. It is, after all, the point where an EU nation meets a non-EU nation. Fact. (I think a lot of Leavers seem to take this position).

But the problem is that it is this very division that is the bone of contention in the Troubles. So having a visible symbol of the de facto division on the border is likely to lead to violence. It's almost like people can let the division be if there isn't something physically present, but if there is, it has to be noticed and reacted to. The pragmatic reality is that a hard physical border will lead to injury and death. And this is not something that can simply be solved by 'locking everyone up'!!

The only real, practical solution I can see is for the UK to stay in the single market and customs union. But that's absolutely not what the Leavers want to do. And to be honest, many of them in England, Scotland and Wales don't seem to give a flying fuck about Ireland. They're all "WHY CAN'T WE JUST LEAAAAVE!" So we find ourselves at stalemate.

Apologies Trewser thanks but there's no need. I was quite nervous about posting as i knew it might be irritating!!

France and Switzerland are both in the Schengen area, that's why there are no boarder checks (with regards to people). Goods however sometimes get checked.
Switzerland pays a huge contribution to the EU.

There are border checks. Our passports were checked last summer. Hence the question from my dcs!

My passport was never checked between Switzerland and France/Germany/Italy/Austria.

Where did you cross the border and were you in a car or coach?

Unscrupulous Me will fill a van with trafficked people in Greece, or Italy or Lithuania- then thanks to the EU Freedom of movement, I can bring them as far as the Republic of Ireland

I think this is a red herring given they'd have to bring them through the UK anyway, unless they wanted a very long ferry ride. The border issue is not about people, it's about goods.

Border checks in Switzerland happen at the airports because they are in Schengen and we are not.

There are certainly customs queues on the motorway between Germany and Switzerland at Konstanz, but you can walk freely over the border. I went for a cross-border run from Konstanz to Kreuzlingen and back.

If you fly from U.K. to Switzerland, you are entering the Schengen zone, so of course there are passport checks. If you enter from France or Italy there will (probably) not be any checks if you are in a passenger vehicle.

We drove. There is a very obvious border. We were randomly checked on the way into Switzerland.

But this is kind of off the point with regard to Ireland, because there is no question of systematic passport checks being introduced for individuals at the Ireland/NI border. The issue is with the transport of goods and agricultural products (and also the provision of services).

I expect they were random checks.

This isn't unusual in the Schengen zone - for eg we were stopped on a minor road crossing from France into Belgium last year.

Yes I agree it is off topic but it was why the dcs asked.

It's a perfectly reasonably question but people can be a bit irritable about it here, because bad-faith posters (who invariably know better) deliberately confuse border controls on trade with border controls on people.

I understand that. The video link was perfect. Thank you.

But the dcs were talking about it at the breakfast table so i went for the easy option!

DH is always asking, "what does MN say about..." thanks to the concise and eloquent women here.

I read something about how many times products cross the border. I think it was a Shepherd's pie ingredients crossed 6 times before the final pie was eaten. How on earth can it work when milk is milked in one place, pasturised in another, made into cheese in another, grated in another, sprinkled on a pie in another, eaten in another?

'The EU often says the Good Friday Agreement, reached by two of its member states, is one of its greatest acheivements'

Eh? Really? The GFA involved a lot of hard work and compromises by many people, but the EU had no active involvement at all. Just turned up for the photo -opp at the end!

Aside from that, the UK may have decided to leave the EU, but it is a common border, and I have always thought it is therefore a joint UK/EU responsibility to ensure a solution.

They did reach a draft agreement though, didn’t they. It’s just that the UK Parliament didn’t like it and were prepared to ditch the former PM over it.

The EU has put substantial sums of money into the border areas in both countries. They have worked to ensure the GFA was successful, to be fair. At least the people of NI appreciated membership of the EU.

Please watch this series
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008c47
Tough at times but worth it

The GFA was an international agreement
in the USA its known as the Baker Agreement after the US Secretary of State who shoulder barged it through
in part to cripple the New York gangsters of Noraid

The Irish border goes WAY beyond the EU
an only arrogant wilful blindness on the part of Tory politicians
has got us into this mess

What would happen if Ireland joins the Schengen area but doesn't install a border (due to GFA)?
Surely then all the migrants in Europe could cross the border into NI and hence the UK unchecked. What would the UK do?

What would the UK do?

Blame it on the Irish, blame it on the EU.

Why change the habit of a lifetime?