Probably a very dumb question, but why have the EU said there must be a completely open border

[Trewser]

When there are border checks between France and Switzerland? I am fully aware that I'm missing something.

Because of the Good Friday Agreement

To prevent a repetition of the Troubles. And because there's an international agreement, the Good Friday Agreement, to uphold (and no, it's not optional).

Ok. Thanks.

What do you think will happen when people start erecting border infrastructure in areas that vote Sinn Fein? (Irish MNetters feel free to correct me but I think on the NI side all those border constituencies are SF).

Trying to explain to the dcs.

Read up on the Good Friday Agreement?

Then check in and read the Irish Times on line periodically. It's a far more articulate and detailed insight than the shallow sound bites available from most newspapers here.

It's interesting how so many people focus on why do the EU sayi X ,Y or Z. Why does no one focus on Ireland and ( some) of the people of NI?

Really the EU position is always discussed with, cleared with and largely dictated by their fellow member- Ireland.

Fair enough, sorry for snippy reply.

But genuinely, who would want to work on border installations in Republican areas? How long until contractors required armed protection and the border becomes de facto militarised?

No don't worry!!

To try and explain to your kids it helps to dip in and out of other countries newspapers once a week or so .. eg Irish times, New Yorker, Washington post, the Times of India- then simplify it all!

Sadly these newspapers are better quality journalism than most of ours for some reason.

Eg

www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/reported-uk-brexit-proposals-don-t-look-like-basis-of-deal-coveney-1.4036937?mode=amp

I used to read the Times of India when i lived there and not sure its necessarily a bastion of impartiality

The Irish press and especially Tony Connelly from RTE have been excellent on Brexit.

In the U.K. press Peter Foster of the Telegraph has been great on Ireland and Brexit, he has am excellent short and very moving video that you could show your kids if they are old enough. I'll go and hunt down a link for you.

Brilliant thanks!

Sorry, getting my "formerly Brexit supporting journalists" mixed up.

The Irish border video is by journalist and former leave campaigner Peter Oborne and it's well worth watching. I think it would be OK for older kids but check first!

twitter.com/joedotie/status/1169308393657516033?s=21

Same video on YouTube:

That video is really great thank you. I have shared with my own (older) kids.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.facebook.com/rtenews/videos/the-border-for-children-or-anyone-who-needs-a-primer/384939345533495/&ved=2ahUKEwik5d_yh_3kAhW0o3EKHYiNDukQwqsBMAF6BAgMEAU&usg=AOvVaw3mlqYCoMN3rrAgZGpVqQL3" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">border explained for kids.

There are lots of very good political and emotional reasons why the border needs to remain open. I haven't watched the videos above but I'll hazard a guess that they are eloquently explained there.

There are also huge logistical reasons.

There are more border crossings between NI and ROI than on the entire eastern edge of the EU. Even if (let's engage in a wild thought experiment) border posts were completely safe to build and staff, and that there was absolutely no threat to anyone from paramilitaries of any type in NI - the logistics are impossible.

There are about 300 crossings. There's big ones like the M1 motorway (although even that isn't straight forward), but also crossings through tiny towns, farms and even individual houses.

There was a hard border before, and the way the British government dealt with the number of crossings was to blow some of the small roads up so they couldn't be used. Not terrorists. The government.

Imagine going to your nearest tesco, only you can't because the government has blown up the road, with no intention of repairing it.

Trewser your post seems somewhat disingenuous at this stage, after years and years of discussion on here and elsewhere.

I apologise if that is not true, but I have spent a lot of time on threads reading and explaining about Brexit and the UK's border with the EU.

The border is in Northern Ireland.
Not in the English Channel.

And your border in NI is unique, as it is overseen and protected by the Good Friday Agreement.

Thanks to the GFA, people in NI can now travel over and back with absolutely no impediment.... as Boris described it, as if they were travelling from Chelsea to Westminster.

Except that, after Brexit, it simply will not be possible to maintain that openness.
Why?

Because, if I am an unscrupulous sort, and I want to smuggle people into Britain, or I want to smuggle chicken/beef out of Britain, then I will exploit that open border.

Unscrupulous Me will fill a van with trafficked people in Greece, or Italy or Lithuania- then thanks to the EU Freedom of movement, I can bring them as far as the Republic of Ireland.

If, as Boris claims, the open border between the UK and the Republic, will stay as open as it is now, then there is nothing to stop Unscrupulous Me from bringing them into Northern Ireland and hence on to Edinburgh or Bristol or London, or Nottingham or Liverpool etc etc.

In reverse, if the UK crashes out, and there are no more EU regulations on the quality of food, then Unscrupulous Me can fill my empty (people trafficking) van with meat. Or even live animals.
Then I can drive from (insert your local British town) to Northern Ireland and into the Republic.

I can then claim that this meat is from the Republic....selling it on to France or Germany or even filling Irish beef orders to the Middle East.
The first time that beef tests as not meeting EU standards- that will be the death knell for those countries buying from Ireland ,or indeed, buying from elsewhere in the EU.
So, the EU cannot allow that.

Clearly (or, it seems so very very very clear to me) that is untenable and will not be allowed to happen in either direction.

Hence there must be Border checks.

Unfortunately, given the history of Northern Ireland, the paramilitaries (who haven't gone away, you know) the person doing the checks, their office, their car, their clerical support, immediately becomes a target for intimidation and threat.

So, this is the dilemma.
One that the UK is paying their politicians to work out.
Except that their politicians seem to be too busy lining their own and their cronies pockets to spend time on coming up with reasonable answers.

There is no simple answer.

There was no simple answer to the War Troubles in Northern Ireland. The GFA involved lots of difficult work over many years, with many difficult brave compromises by individuals from every side.

It is (as I've said before) sinful to attempt to throw the GFA away so lightly.

"Despite a prevailing narrative that there are no border controls, Irish and British police and authorities have carried out clandestine immigration enforcement operations along Northern Ireland’s borders since at least 2003."

"In 2016, 800 people were “intercepted” under these operations.That was a 66% increase on the year before."

"Under a rubric known as Operation Gull, British and Irish police and immigration forces perform “non-routine” immigration controls."

"Little is known about this operation, but police and immigration officers check cross-border buses, search trains, and stop private cars."

www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/migrants-are-always-at-risk-of-crossing-a-line-945668.html

Trewser your post seems somewhat disingenuous at this stage, after years and years of discussion on here and elsewhere

And it is hugely disingenuous to suggest that because it's been discussed on mumsnet then of course everyone should have read about it.

I have barely read a single Brexit thread, i actively avoid them.

Thanks so much to those who linked to the video i have sent it to dcs.

True Clavinova.....

but

British an Irish police co-operate under EU cross border policing arrangements. Those will no longer apply post-Brexit ( a fact pointed out worriedly by the Chief Constable of NI...a man formerly of Cheshire police and Scotland Yard).

And, I've driven across the border many times both for work and personal visits. Never been stopped or even seen a checkpoint.

I suspect (no inside information) there is much informal cross-border police cooperation about where and when to have checkpoints.

Trewser As I already said in the sentence following the one that you quoted, I apologise if I am wrong.

However, you can appreciate that people who have tried to explain the issue for several years may be somewhat fatigued with offering explanations in good faith.

I think it's generally worth taking people at face value until they prove that they are posting in bad faith.

(I am also guilty of this but I did apologise to the OP!)

Glad you found the video useful Trewser. I personally found it very moving, but also a salutory reminder that people you disagree with (and I'm sure I'd disagree with Oborne on almost every aspect of politics if met him in RL!) can make important contributions to the conversation.

Well not really, I appreciate the offering of explanations but there's really no need to get arsey because people haven't read your earlier threads.

I'm so glad this message is getting out (though so slowly), and thank you for asking the question Trewser.

Brilliant, clear explanation, DuchessDumbarton.