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Brexit

If they find proroguation was illegal hell just do it again?

41 replies

StealthPolarBear · 19/09/2019 15:06

Have I heard that right? So if its established to be illegal hell just do the same illegal thing again?
If I get caught speeding I'll just put my foot down further

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TatianaLarina · 19/09/2019 15:28

Yep pretty much. They’ll just do it differently next time.

Bluntness100 · 19/09/2019 15:33

I'm not sure he will to be honest. If it was found to be illegal I also don't know if he can hold onto power. That would be huge. For him to be found legally guilty of lying to the queen? It's enormous. Watergate huge. I don't think there is much road for him after that.

fedup21 · 19/09/2019 15:34

How many thousands and thousand are of pounds have been wasted on this of that is the outcome?!

So either it’s

This Prorogation is illegal (but it doesn’t matter, he can still do it and can do it again if he wants).

Or

This prorogation is fine- just carry on as you were.

Is it the case that BJ can’t lose?

StealthPolarBear · 19/09/2019 15:35

That's the bit I don't understand. Arguing about its legality is one thing but for the prime minister to just do something he knows is illegal (which is what they've threatened to do) is huge surely. Why stop there if you're willing to break the law so obviously? Surely he could achieve plenty more if he wasn't constrained by the law.

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GCAcademic · 19/09/2019 15:44

It will all be framed as the judges being biased. BJ will move things up a notch from his “The People vs Parliament” populism to “The People vs Parliament and the Judiciary”. All those dreadful elites that only (old Etonian, Bullingdon boy) Johnson is willing to stand up to. It works for Trump. The right wing press will manipulate their idiot readers accordingly. We’ll have elected judges soon enough.

Bluntness100 · 19/09/2019 15:54

It's really hard to understand and I'm not sure I've got a grasp on it. But this is my best understanding.

If it's found to be illegal. Then it depends on why the judges think it's illegal.
Prorogueing Parliament is a pm right. In itself it is absolutely not illegal.

What's illegal is if he did it purely to silence parliament, to allow him to behave as a dictator, then lied to to Queen to get her approval. This would of course be illegal. That's the nuts and bolts of the court case.

If he did it primarilyfor the reasons he said to the queen, to set a new legislative agenda, then this is not illegal.

If it was illegal. Then it depends on the judges reasoning. So for example if they say it was illegal, as such it has to be recalled, because it was never prorogued legally, then of course Boris has the option to prorogue it properly, as long as his reason for doing so is legal. Ie setting a new legislative agenda.

The English courts said it was political and not a court decision. The Scottish courts said it was illegal and he lied about why he was doing it.

The Supreme Court needs to now decide. Is it a matter for the courts and do they have a position to make the pm accountable, or is it nothing to do with them. That's what's on the table

But prorogation in itself is not illegal. What's being tried as possibly illegal is why he prorogued it and that he lied to the queen to get her approval.

If he's found to have lied to get royal assent. That's a really really big deal. Enormous. And he won't be in power long. It's as corrupt as it gets.

verticality · 19/09/2019 15:56

Have a look at the latest Jon Worth flowchart. It should clarify both what is going on and why it is actually quite irrelevant

jonworth.eu/brexit-what-next/

Bluntness100 · 19/09/2019 16:00

That's an excellent flow chart.

verticality · 19/09/2019 16:09

Yeah, his stuff is really clarifying.

For many months now, the Tory 'policy on Brexit' has really been the Tory general election campaign.

StealthPolarBear · 23/09/2019 14:42

Thank you everyone. I wonder when we'll hear. Everything brexit seems to have gone quite quiet

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prettybird · 23/09/2019 15:01

10.30 tomorrow morning. That's apparently when the Supreme Court is announcing its judgement.

StealthPolarBear · 23/09/2019 15:03

Thank you

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TheNumberfaker · 23/09/2019 15:27

Hmm, just wondering if the latest scandal coming out now is to give him a different reason for resigning?

fedup21 · 23/09/2019 15:33

Hmm, just wondering if the latest scandal coming out now is to give him a different reason for resigning?

Latest scandal?

StealthPolarBear · 23/09/2019 15:47

The conflict of interest stuff I assume. Tbh it's all a bit of a blur

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StealthPolarBear · 23/09/2019 15:49

Oh and bluntness your explanation was really helpful thank you

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ListeningQuietly · 23/09/2019 16:05

It was the question from one of the Judges along the lines of
what is to stop the Government proroguing for a year
that is the absolute clincher I think.

They are designing a form of words which will corner him

StealthPolarBear · 23/09/2019 17:10

Does it prevent a vote of no confidence?
He seems untouchable.

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fedup21 · 23/09/2019 17:21

They are designing a form of words which will corner him

Do you think there’s a decent chance they might rule against BJ tomorrow?

I was beginning to think he was untouchableSad

akkakk · 23/09/2019 18:02

It can't be illegal as there is no law specifically broken - i.e. if the law said you could only do it for 2 weeks, then it would be illegal to do it for 5 weeks - but there is no such law...

so those taking it to the supreme court are doing so on the belief that they know what was in BJ's mind when he advised the queen - and are arguing that his advice to the queen was not his real reason - and that would be the bit which was illegal...

remember also that the Queen Prorogued parliament not BJ - and the Queen technically can not be found to be illegal as all law comes from the crown etc.

so the question is whether the advice was flawed, and if so would the queen therefore not have prorogued parliament...

there is absolute clarity that to finish the current period of parliament / to have a queen's speech etc. then proroguing is needed - so at its base that is not wrong - it is whether BJ was also using it for other (political purposes) - and then there is the decision as to whether or not the courts are even allowed to rule on that anyway!

fedup21 · 23/09/2019 18:20

so the question is whether the advice was flawed, and if so would the queen therefore not have prorogued parliament..

Thank you-you explained that really well!

What was Boris’s reason (as given to the queen) for prorogation?

Unescorted · 23/09/2019 18:43

so those taking it to the supreme court are doing so on the belief that they know what was in BJ's mind when he advised the queen - and are arguing that his advice to the queen was not his real reason - and that would be the bit which was illegal...

Which is why the redacted memos were of interest as it would not be based on belief, but on what can be demonstrated was the thinking.

StealthPolarBear · 24/09/2019 10:44

Ruled unlawful!

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mummmy2017 · 24/09/2019 10:55

Yet more proof to the EU that this country is so divided, hope they take note.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 24/09/2019 11:24

Yet more proof to the EU that this country is so divided, hope they take note

What do you mean by this?