How can we best fight the fallout of Brexit, whether we leave EU or not?

[Echobelly]

One of my big worries about the whole Brexit omnishambles is the sheer degree of societal schism that has now been created and that will remain whatever happens, even (perhaps especially) if we were to somehow remain in the EU.

The world economy is probably headed in a downward direction anyway, so whether we leave or don’t, I fear the increasing strength of populist movements that will blame anything bad happening on the EU/’intellectuals’/’The Elite’ (which isn’t actually the real ‘Elite’)/immigrants/foreigners/people of colour etc and will get popular support for it.

How can we fight this? It feels like we need to start now and need to build bridges between different groups of people. Because ultimately right-wingers throwing barriers at police in Whitehall are not helping themselves. Left wingers on social media calling anyone to the right of them ‘bigots’ and ‘fascists’ are not helping themselves. Everyone is basically being betrayed by the government, whether they wanted Brexit or not, but here we are slinging mud at each other and creating a great big opening for even worse politics to fill in rather than holding those in power to account. But I feel like I can only shout into my bubble and that I know that as a middle class ‘elite’ Londoner I lack understanding of what it’s like to be a working-class leaver in Sunderland, or indeed millionaire Brexiteer in a mansion in Surrey, and I have no connection to those people.

Great question, OP. The answer is money. When everyone has mostly enough they don't really care about politics.

A decent place to live.
Decent school for your kids if you have kids. Somewhere they can play and socialise.
Enough money for what you need and some treats/luxuries.
Belief that you'll be looked after reasonably well if you get sick.
A bit of hope for the future - you'll earn more for more luxuries, be able to retire comfortably enough, your kids will have jobs and a decent standard of life.

That's all most people want. I know people's idea of a decent place to live differs, as does a decent school, a decent amount to live on and a decent amount for treats or luxuries. But essentially, food, shelter, health, work, hobby, social life/interaction. People are happy with things being ok and only go to extremes when they've lost hope.

If we don't leave the eu we will have biggest crisis in our country since Oliver Cromwell?

We will be democracy in name only and goodness knows where we will end up. Imagine the French, what would they do if they voted to frexit and it was not carried out!

However if we don't leave then, something will happen to parliamentary law, and it will be inserted somewhere what to do if we have future referendums, and parliament doesn't for fill the vote.

I do worry about this, actually - Brexit or not, someone needs to be the one who closes the divide. And Boris / Dominic Cummings are definitely not suitable for the job. Society, and the world, is becoming increasingly polarised. Christianity vs Islam, North vs South, Trump vs Everyone .

But how much of this, I wonder, is actually a creation of the media? Politicians and lobby groups performing simply for the benefit of ratings? Most of it, I suspect. But with serious consequences, and that really worries me.

Personally I think we've fucked it. It will be the next generation who sorts our mess!

Good point @Apileofballyhoo - if people were less desperate, and also if attention were given to places other than London, that would be a help.

I think the only vaguely credible way out of Brexit is to promise, and give, a shit-tonne of investment to all those neglected areas so that the problems they were protesting about by voting to leave can actually be solved (because leaving the EU won't sort them out). As friend from the South West said recently, all these people saying rural areas will lose out on EU funding need to ask why the UK government wasn't supporting them properly.

If we don't leave the eu we will have biggest crisis in our country since Oliver Cromwell?

If we do leave the EU we will have the biggest crisis in our country since WW2. We will be opening the door to years of trade negotiations from a position of weakness, and divisions between the populace will continue, particularly if the impacts outlined in Operation Yellowhammer, by the BMA, by the BRC etc. come to fruition. These things will affect us not only on a national/economic level, but on a personal level, too. Remain voters will blame Leavers for bringing this down on them and Leavers will blame everyone but themselves, as they are already doing.

I don't know how we can fight this. Frankly, I think that ship has sailed. The time for bringing people together was in the weeks and months immediately after the referendum, but, instead, divisions were stoked and positions have become entrenched.

I agree with Apileofb but I also think the money needed to compensate for No Deal Brexit doesn’t exist. If we do that, no bonding at the queue for the food bank, I’m afraid

Very worthwhile question and very timely.
Let's remember Britain's social divisions did not appear out of nowhere. They existed long before Brexit: Britain has always had divisions of rich and poor and class, going back to 1066 at least. Like Apile I think the major problem is sorting the economics out. We talk about socioeconomic collapse for a reason.

I am like twoFingers very pessimistic. What we need first is leadership from the top, leadership of honesty and integrity who understand that they need to lead by example. So we're a bit stuffed there. We need them to understand the role of information, intelligent debate, media and law in democracy, and the dangers of excessive private ownership and commercialisation just as much as those of excessive state control. And we need them to communicate that understanding to all, without bloody stupid little Eton boys' or party-political power games and corrupted media. That's step two stuffed. We need them to understand the principles of cooperation and that the entire nation is important (step three failed). We need them to rebuild the public institutions and social infrastructure that echo those principles and make life accessible to all, starting with supporting the judiciary, rebuilding local government at a new local government level, accepting that demographics have changed (never is any money, except when it's flowing into or staying in private purses: step four is hopeless). As part of that we can get the Parliament out of London at long last (ha) - in fact that would be a good first symbolic step. We need, in short, our leaders to act fairly, stop treating most of the nation as inferiors, begin to be representative of the nation, and restore equality. So I'm very pessimistic.

I also think the money needed to compensate for No Deal Brexit doesn’t exist. Even further into the realm of idealism, perhaps we need to stop thinking about 'money' as such. The financial system is broken. Ideally we should chuck it and go back to what it represents, human and physical resources, and reconsider its distribution. There is a lot of all that in this island.

@DarkAtEndOfUK - I agree moving government out of London would be a good step.

So much of Brexit BS is built on totally outdated ideas of how the world operates now. London now has more in common with San Francisco than it does with Sheffield these days, for example - it's basically a state unto itself and will, IMO, manage to do OK as a whole (though not for the poorest) post-Brexit while the rest of the country enters or continues a decline.

I disagree to some extent. London is not a city-state in itself. A city-state requires a periphery. The rest of the country is its periphery (that's how it's been acting, that's the trouble). The centre will not hold if the rest goes down.

@Echobelly don't forget the major Northern cities voted remain! We may be in the North but we are multicultural and educated!

Oh absolutely @minesagin37 , I know plenty of other cities voted remain

There will be continuing erruptions! This cannot go away.

As for London and our other great cities which voted Remain, they provide the wealth for the country because higher taxes are paid.

We are way better off, most of us, since we joined the EU. Lots of voters have no idea about when we were “The poor man of Europe” and laughed at. In the last 40 years the majority have benefitted. Even people in Sunderland. They just choose to ignore that a car factory is there because of the EU and it pays well! It supports local businesses. Turn against access to the EU markets without a deal at your peril. It’s stupid beyond belief.

Brexit was all about waiting times for doctors, not getting the school you want and “taking back control” and for my mum, the shape of bananas. Most people don’t really understand economics, trade deals and no tariff trade. The easy to understand messages were all about Leave and little was understood about the benefits of Remain because the press hadn’t mentioned them for 40 years! The uk was Brainwashed!

The uk was Brainwashed!
I prefer to say 'groomed'.

I suspect there was a not inconsiderable minority who literally thought they'd vote leave, and next day we wouldn't have to give the EU money and wouldn't have to abide by 'their laws' any more.

The question by OP remain valid.
I am now getting to the point of giving up hope. Not to remain, that I accepted after the referendum (not straight away, but I now accept the point that leave we must). I fear, no honestly, I think boris’ strategy will win and we will end up with a far right government winning at the next GE, before the reality of ND will kick in, and a veryverydodgy trade agreement with the USA which will sell off bits and pieces. British farmer might not want to lower their production standards, but the competition will, and millions of people will feel the consequences.
I think the concept of democracy is seriously injured. What I think is a democratic process for leavers today is a shameful act and they don’t have troubles in going around with board saying we’re traitors and we should be hung etc etc
The bar has dropped low.
How do you go back? Back to civil debate, back to having different opinions but taking turns and respecting the rules of law, Parliament, the judiciary, etc? Back to JUST NOT saying rude things. No need to be that aggressive. Back to when being a bully was a BAD thing.

Which other country has gone through a similar process? I can think of Turkey going from a more liberal, western-esque country to Erdogan and (almost? Well, Istanbul only) back.
Yugoslavia- I don’t want o think about it. The depth of that pit and the number of innocent victims is not something I can conceive in the same post as the U.K. albeit everybody should know and remember it. They did the Winter Olympics in Sarajevo.

How do we do that? Civility- Once we lose it, is it lost forever? How can I prepare myself and my kids to get back to the U.K. I knew?

I'm so sorry, Cherin.

1. Don't Panic
2. Don't stockpile
3. Keep your cool
4. Buy local produce as much as possible (environmentally friendly too)
5. Smile and nod if someone expresses a view that is opposed from yours (unless they are making racist/sexist/ageist remarks, in which case say "I couldn't disagree with you more" and turn and walk away)
6. Take time out from Protesting against whatever boils your blood. Not long - just a few weeks, we've had nearly 4 years of angst and it is time to stop , reflect, refresh, renew.
7. Take time to do and really appreciate the things you enjoy.

Sounds a bit like instructions to the herd on the way to the slaughterhouse, BMW. You don’t want the tests to come up with raised hormones of fear, after we’re culled?
:-O

I can take 1. And I can take 7.
That’s about it

1. Don't Panic, even though the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
2. Don't stockpile make any preparations whatsoever.
3. Keep your cool Be placid and compliant.
4. Buy local produce as much as possible (environmentally friendly too) Be rich.
5. Smile and nod if someone expresses a view that is opposed from yours Do not express an opinion. See 3 above.
6. Take time out from Protesting against whatever boils your blood. Do as you're told. Accept anything. Lie down and let people you despise walk all over you. See 3 above.
7. Take time to do and really appreciate the things you enjoy before it's too late and the economy goes to shit and you lose your job.

A lot of my family are Leavers. I respect their right to have their vote heard. They respect my fears about Brexit. We all want the best possible outcome for the UK, but disagree on how to do it.

The only thing we can agree on is it's been an utter shitshow, so far.

I personally think everyone is exhausted with it. Find a resolution (preferably a boring one that does not involve body bags or medicine running out) and civility will return. The uncertainty is working against all of us now.

I doubt that there will be any "owning your shit" and lots of whining and blaming other people.
How long it will take to get past that, God only knows.

@cherin - I agree with you. I read a very concerning article a year or two ago about Italy post-Berlusconi, in relation to Trump, saying that things don't just 'snap back to normal' after someone like that goes out of power, and the 'Overton Window' of what is acceptable has been stretched out of shape.

One big problem it mentioned is that political discourse, which should be based on at least an idea that the other party is acting in good faith, is replaced by fixed enmity and name-calling. Eg whereas once you responsed to your opposition with 'I disagree with the right honorable member's proposal, because I don't see how the funding for their policy will be sufficient' it becomes ... 'You're liar, and I heard your boss was in a paedophile ring!' Just a circus with no trust and no reasoning.

At the moment what is needed is unity against Brexit which is why it bothers me that when, say, a Tory does the right thing, people are so determined to dig dirt on them and say 'Oh, but look at their voting record, they're a Bad Person, we mustn't accept their support'

Politics is complicated - honestly I'm not bothered about the moral perfection of anyone who tries to stop it or what their other views are, we can talk about that later (I know, easy for me to say, I am privileged, but still...) And besides, they do not stand to gain by blocking Brexit, more likely quite the opposite.

Tribalism about someone's background or past record is not helpful - standing together and understanding nuance is.