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Brexit

Maybe Brexit IS the green option?

21 replies

nellodee · 07/09/2019 18:37

My main political goal is voting for whatever will aid the fight against climate change. I've been mulling round the idea that the thing which has had the greatest impact on carbon emissions was the global recession of 2009. Could it be true that the best thing we can do for the environment is tank the economy? Does this logic lead me to switch from remain to pro Brexit purely because I think we will go into an economic nosedive? I feel like one of those computers in a sixties show where some clever bastard asks them a cunning question and they explode.

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Oranginna · 07/09/2019 18:47

I know you're being ironic but I think it is. So did Jenny Jones in 2016. "The Eu is beyond reform. The Green case for Brexit." Jenny Jones Guardian 2016.
www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjvjqXdoL_kAhUOzoUKHSTCAZ8QzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcommentisfree%2F2016%2Fjun%2F08%2Feu-reform-green-brexit&psig=AOvVaw28lDUGPjALA_5h5JUt_te8&ust=1567964407056876

nellodee · 07/09/2019 18:59

I'm not actually being ironic. I truly think that we are going to have to make some really painful sacrifices if we are going to overcome environmental damage. But, I'm also aware that due to my reasonably stable position, if I wish for economic collapse, I'm wishing misfortune on others, including those who will least be able to cope with it (which is the diametric opposite of my usual position).

I don't actually buy the arguments in that article, though. It assumes that the alternative to the EU position is a green utopia, when we all know its actually a fracked up Trump appeasing dystopia.

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berlinbabylon · 07/09/2019 19:03

I don't think so. At the moment people are beginning to choose green products. But all that will stop if there is a reduction in choice. You'll have to buy what's there, even if it is wrapped in plastic.

I have to confess I would like to see all the urban SUV drivers off the roads. If Brexit lead to that there would be at least one upside.

SalrycLuxx · 07/09/2019 19:03

It is likely a greener option than the others, and could force us to cease our greedy overconsumption. But not great on any other measure.

nellodee · 07/09/2019 19:13

So that means my position on Brexit is that I think it will tank the economy, cause massive suffering to hundreds of thousands of people living near the breadline, permanently bring to an end our position as a big player on the world stage aaaaand.... I support it?

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nellodee · 07/09/2019 19:18

Maybe I just have to see this as an "every cloud has a silver lining" kind of thing.

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MrsMaiselsMuff · 07/09/2019 19:18

You need to balance your primary aim with secondary aims. Minimise climate change whilst also ensuring a fair standard of living for all? If so, Brexit is definitely not the answer, nor are many more years of austerity.

Cripesaliveitshim · 07/09/2019 19:19

Omg you can't be serious

nellodee · 07/09/2019 19:31

I am going to have to think about this. Possibly in this situation, I find myself in a bittersweet win-win. Either some kind of left leaning, pro-brexit alliance comes into being that is probably more sympathetic to green incentives, or an ultra right wing government brings us to our knees and we all end up sewing patches on our trouser knees and start eating nothing but locally grown root vegetables.

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nellodee · 07/09/2019 19:32

I'm fairly sure people in the Bahamas are feeling fairly serious about the impacts of global warming round about now. I'm being a bit glib, but yes, I am serious.

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Yestermo · 07/09/2019 19:36

Given that one if the main aims of Brexit is to increase our trade ties with non -eu countries (e.g. US, China, Australia) the increased air miles of transporting goods will increase CO2 emissions. Also we will no longer have to abide by EU regulations many of which were brought in by the older lot of MEPs who had a large green percentage. I can't see Boris and his cronies giving two shits about the environment.

SalrycLuxx · 07/09/2019 19:40

nello. I’ve ended up supporting no deal because I’ve come to the conclusion that this country needs a massive kick up the arse and to realise that regardless of what may or may not have happened in a war 80 years ago, we’re not the centre of the universe and everyone else does not have to dance to our tune.

We need a mass recalibration and I’ve reached the point of believing that no deal is the only way.

Cripesaliveitshim · 07/09/2019 19:41

Given that one if the main aims of Brexit is to increase our trade ties with non -eu countries (e.g. US, China, Australia) the increased air miles of transporting goods will increase CO2 emissions. Also we will no longer have to abide by EU regulations many of which were brought in by the older lot of MEPs who had a large green percentage. I can't see Boris and his cronies giving two shits about the environment.

This ^ all true

jasjas1973 · 07/09/2019 19:47

Yep a failing economy s good for cycling, people take it up to commute, those who do drive do so more slowly and less people drive for leisure.

Less people in work means less congestion too.

Med shortages mean more deaths, lower population so again great for the environment and will help with housing, talking of which, people wont be able to afford to heat the things, so more deaths and less carbon emissions

BUT BJ has said in his proposal to the EU is he wants the uk to be excluded from both environmental and worker protections.

iismum · 07/09/2019 19:51

Once we're free of all that pesky EU red tape, we'll be free not only to abolish workers rights but also to trash any environmental legislation and let the free market and Trump determine our environment policy. Awesome!

On the up side, the EU is likely to get a fair bit greener because the UK has constantly lobbied against environmental legislation passing into EU law. So that's a plus.

A tanked economy is likely to lead to less pointless purchasing, but also people tend to make greener choices when they can afford to, and buy cheap poor-quality unethical stuff when they're worried about being able to feed their family.

So pros and cons. But no way enough pros to justify brexit.

Threehoursfromhome · 07/09/2019 20:36

I can address this somewhat, as I know people who work carbon emissions reporting, although I personally don’t. Apologies for length but I think this is relevant.

Basically yes, economic growth is strongly correlated with emissions growth and so, if GDP goes down following Brexit, UK production (as in CO2 generating activities on UK territory) emissions will decrease, as possibly will UK consumption emissions (the CO2 embodied in things we buy from other countries) however see below.

However, the flip side of lower GDP leading to lower emissions, is that many in the sustainability sector believe Brexit, in general, and no deal Brexit in particular is based on a deregulatory agenda. Deregulation has the strong potential to increase UK production emissions because of lower environmental standards. So, the potential for more things like Druridge Bay open cast coal mining; lower emissions standards for factories etc. Government position is that it won’t happen, but we all know laws can be repealed and as soon as environmental protection is reframed as a ‘choke on growth’ then they likely will be. Greater Crested Newt protection will be one of the first to go, I think, developers have hated that one for years, so we can treat that as a bellwether for the current claims that there will be no reduction in environmental standards.

Further, whatever form of Brexit we get, we will be buying more goods from outside of the EU. The EU generally has world leading environmental standards (which does not mean perfect) so consumption emissions are likely to go up. For example we end up buying more goods from eg China, or the US both of which still have significant coal powered electricity generation, then consumption emissions for these goods (made with coal powered electricity) will be much worse than if we bought the same goods from eg France which doesn’t. Not to mention goods have to be transported for thousands of miles rather than hundreds increasing the CO2 emissions from transport.

Leaving the EU also removes the UK’s membership of the EU as a negotiating block at the Conference of Parties where global ambition on climate change is set. The EU, although far from perfect, is a leader on action on climate change globally, and the UK outside of it is a far less powerful voice and has much less influence on outcomes.

In addition, a no deal Brexit (and maybe other forms of Brexit, who knows?) removes UK scientists’ eligibility for EU research funding, which is a significant part of the national research budget. It means less research can be done to address climate change and will also lead to a brain drain as scientists move elsewhere (this is already underway).

And to conclude on that cheery note, I don’t know anyone in the UK sustainability sector who is pro-Brexit or thinks it will be good for either the UK environment domestically or decrease UK CO2 emissions, any possible short-term dip notwithstanding. Apart from anything else, government is going to be tied up for decades in renegotiating all the trade deals its undone, so the political will and funding for tackling climate change just won’t be there.

Theworldisfullofgs · 07/09/2019 20:40

All that will happen is the least able will pay for the choices of others.
It will increase economic equality and those that already disproportionately affect the climate will continue to do so.
Green options require investment therefore a stable economy.

TeamUnicorn · 07/09/2019 20:57

Thank you three hours

A pretty daft question but I am guessing that most goods from Europe come by road and boat, how would we mass import from China and the US? Is it all container ships?

Threehoursfromhome · 07/09/2019 21:05

Containers, I believe yes. As I say it's not my actual area. I do know the environmental impacts of shipping are larger than they might first appear because although its an efficient form of transport it also involves a lot of goods travelling a long way.

Emissions will also depend on the age of the fleet and what fuel source they use.

nellodee · 07/09/2019 22:04

Thank you, Threehours. That was really useful information.

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Threehoursfromhome · 07/09/2019 22:25

No problem, nellodee. I suppose the other thing is to add is that very few things are completely black and white. Brexit does provide some opportunities, ie the opportunity to revisit farming subsidies. Few would argue CAP has been good for the environment, and with good leadership and vision (never guaranteed) there is the potential for a better system to be put in place.

However, in terms of sustainability overall, the better choice is clearly in favour of staying in the EU.

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