Do Remainers wish their MPs had voted for Theresa Mays deal in light of the current chaos?

[yellowallpaper]

I didn't vote as I'm so much on the fence my bum is sore.

I did decide I would go along with whatever was voted on and was surprised it was Leave.

More than happy with a Norway type deal, or a very soft Brexit if that was offered, equally happy to stay in. Not so happy about No Deal and am watching the whole bun fight with amazement.

I am honestly staggered at all the arguing and fighting that's going on but I just can't get excited like others seem to, let alone fight for one side or the other.

I am curious though at whether you experts think the MPs who voted against Theresa Mays deal are now regretting this as it seemed a reasonable compromise? At the time I think the Leavers voted no because of the close ties with the EU, and the Remainers voted no because they were determined Brexit could be defeated this way. Or have I got this all wrong?

What is happening now is 100% worse than TMs deal.

Many MP's voted against it in the hope that A50 would be revoked or that Brexit would somehow be cancelled.
Looks like the chickens are coming home to roost.

The next few days will be interesting!

@Notonthestairs, are you in St Albans? I did too, and also had no response :-(

My MP voted remain but then voted for the WA and is now in favour of no deal.

Same. The WA is not soft Brexit. That would be Norway.

@Fleetheart Yes. I guess we were the constituents she was complaining about writing to her!! I hope she loses her seat in the GE.

I thought from the word go they should just vote for it to avoid this shitshow.

Not sure why it’s a question being asked of remainers though, plenty of Brexiteers also voted against the WA at the first time of asking including our current PM

I'm just utterly confused about all the twists and turns. I've no idea why a GE would work to achieve BJs agenda? Surely he would be voted out?

I am no Tory (fully paid up member of the Fence Sitting Society aka The Lib Dems) but this is delusional. He would not be voted out. The opposite would happen.

I honestly don't know enough of the details of May's deal to have an opinion.
My MP is a hard brexit loon, though

It isn't some wicked fancy created by the EU to piss us off

No convinced about that. Michel Barmier stated backstop was to protect the EU Single Market and revenues.

I have never trusted EU's pretense that GFA is their priority. More of a way of hoping to cancel Brexit completely.

WA was rejected by Labour as part of their policy to make Conservatives look bad and hopefully force a GE. However, the rise of the Brexit party in May 2019 saw both Conservative and Labour slump in the polls compared to the result of the 2017 GE as voters migrated to Brexit and LibDem party

Yes I think that’s exactly it.

These MPs won’t countenance any form of Brexit.

However, I don’t think we will leave, too much chaos for EU if we do so they won’t allow it.

@munchbunch above was in agreement with you!

the EU's pretense that GFA is their priority. More of a way of hoping to cancel Brexit completely.???

The EU merely support Ireland which is remaining a member. Yes the respect the GFA as an international agreement but they take the lead from Ireland in doing so.

The EU have been completely transparent about their position all the way through.They even published each stage of the WA progress on their website.

By contrast everything at our end ranging from David Davis's 'non existent' impact assessments to the operation yellow hammer documents have been suppressed from the public.

Before each and every stage the EU consult with Varadkar. The EU merely support the position of the member state ( Ireland) that is remaining a member.

As Coveney said “I think the Irish position is very clear. I think the British Government understands that,..The EU position is also very clear. It is the same as the Irish position."

I'd trust Ireland and the EU much more than Johnson, Rees Mogg etc.

The press reports seem to all agree that the new Johnson's team didn't even proactively suggest meeting with anyone from the Irish government! That suggestion had to be initiated by Varadkar.

"The Taoiseach has invited the British Prime Minister to Dublin for talks on Northern Ireland and Brexit. Mr Johnson has yet to schedule a formal meeting with Mr Varadkar after promising to meet him to discuss the backstop."

The EU simply show solidarity with their member state. If Ireland and the UK both miraculously agreed some new unicorn border arrangement the EU would endorse that.

It is leave supporting MPs who have failed to get us to leave the EU, not remain supporting. This idea that the hope that we wouldn’t leave is what has stopped us is bollocks. The leaders have never been able to agree on how to leave and they all abdicated responsibility when they had the chance to lead after Cameron resigned, because they knew what shit they were in. The idea of revoking article 50 only became a thing after it was clear what an enormous hash was being made of things. After the referendum I and all remain voters I know were just saying “let’s hope it’s a soft brexit” rather than hoping that the result wouldn’t be followed through. Why won’t leavers take responsibility for the mess created by their own infighting and conflicting red lines?

Brexit was cooked up to keep the Tories in power. The Libdems are Remain just to gain power but once/if they gain power they will just revert to being Tories. The only opposition to the Tories is Labour led by Jeremy Corbyn. Brexit is bad news for this country and I'd be interested in how many Leavers were Leavers before the Tories popped the idea into their heads that the EU was to blame for all that is wrong in our country?

And the EU are completely right to protect the GFA. Someone has to look out for the island of Ireland, the British govt never have and have demonstrated time and time again that they cannot be trusted there

Nope. Only revoke can save us from this shit show.

And the EU are completely right to protect the GFA

Suggest you look at Article 50 in more detail. Key points are:

Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements

GFA is not part of UK Constitution. This was established in the Miller case whereby supreme court ruled that UK does not need to obtain approval from Northern Island to leave the EU. Makes sense based on fact that; England, Scotland and Wales were not party to any referendums or votes for the GFA.3.

The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period

This recognizes that if agreement can not be made the member that has chosen to leave does so without a deal. This makes sense too as the leaving member could be trapped in the EU forever.

Substantive conditions for a withdrawal

Relevant international-law provisions cannot be applied in parallel to Article 50 TEU. Rather, the procedure and consequences of a withdrawal from the EU are now governed by EU law and no recourse to international law is possible

The GFA is not included in EU law and as the above states there is no recourse to international law if a member chooses to leave the EU.

Procedure

Ratification by Member States

Unlike the accession of new Member States to the EU, the withdrawal of a Member State does not require ratification by the remaining Member States – Article 50(1) TEU mentions (in a declaratory way) only the decision of the withdrawing state, in accordance with its constitutional requirements

The above allows UK to leave the EU even if other member states do not like the decision.

The role of the Court of Justice

Again unlike accession treaties, the withdrawal agreement is not primary EU law, since it is concluded between the EU and the withdrawing state and not between the latter and the rest of the Member States

This requires to European Council, as opposed to individual members, to negotiate the Withdrawal Agreement.

If EU is allowing ROI to take the lead then they are in violation of Article 50.

The fact that we haven’t left yet is still on leavers, sorry. You can try and deflect and blame the EU all you like, but leave supporting MPs had it in their power to get us to leave and they voted against

It is not remainers’ fault that no leavers can agree on how to leave. And all those leave supporting candidates for the Conservative party leadership who chickened our after Cameron resigned? They knew it was going to be too difficult for them

My MP didn’t vote for TMs deal because he’s a batshit ERG member who fully backs no deal. I could write to him but he is an arsehole who is likely to send back a semi-abusive letter accusing me of being a left wing agitator, or some such. So I haven’t.
The ERG members and the DUP are the people that blocked TMs deal, many remain MPs voted for it.

Most Labour MPs also didn’t vote for the deal. Even though it was very very similar to their Brexit ideal. Simply because they wanted a GE.

The WA is an infinitely softer Brexit than what we are staring at.

The biggest risk I think is that the Brexit party get seats that would otherwise gone to the tories, so Nigel Farage gets to hold Boris to ransom like the DUP did with Theresa May. And I can’t stand Boris.

Because the British public are fecking idiots.

Leave supporters had the opportunity for an orderly brexit far “harder” than a 48/52 vote merited - really the outcome suggests a “soft” brexit. But it wasn’t good enough for many of them because no one can agree on how to leave and they all have different reasons for wanting to do so. None of this is remainers’ fault

My Tory MP campaigned for remain and his constituency voted to remain. He voted to trigger A50, voted for the WA and resigned from the cabinet over the WA whip. So he'll probably be one of Johnson's casualties this time round too as I can't see how he'll not vote for the bill stopping a No deal Brexit.

This will work out quite well as he's a very good constituency MP who's really helped me out when I've needed it, but I'd never be able to vote for him as he's a Tory. Not sure what he'll do next though and if he'll stand as an independent or join the Greens.

No. There is no deal better than the current one.

And I prefer the chaos for now. It’s got the potential to reset our politics. Maybe even to something that works.

but leave supporting MPs had it in their power to get us to leave and they voted against

Because the WA agreed by T May was not leave. WA could tie the UK to the EU forever without any say in EU laws and policies. That T May attempted to conceal the legal advice on the WA was a giveaway that it was a bad deal.

Most Labour MPs also didn’t vote for the deal. Even though it was very very similar to their Brexit ideal. Simply because they wanted a GE

Correct. They thought they still had 40% of the vote based on the 2017 GE result, but realized that they did not when Farage came along in the EU elections and topped the table with 31%.