Can someone explain the Irish backstop to me in very simple words?

[Apolloanddaphne]

I am an intelligent woman with multiple degrees but i have to confess i have no idea what the back stop is. I am too scared to ask my DH or my friends lest they think i am an imbecile (lighthearted). I have tried googling it to read articles about it but i just don't get it.

One of my friends is Irish and has a piece in a newspaper today related this today. If it comes up in conversation next time i see him i would at least like to be able to say something semi intelligent about it!

Help me please. Use easy words. Thanks.

You insulted me, telling me I'm not Irish. Don't speak for your country, I know plenty of Irish people that totally disagree with you and would be disgusted by what you are saying,. People like you make me glad I got the fuck out of it all! But even though I will soon be entitled to three passports, I'm still as Irish as you, whether you like it or not.

Inniu: "Every time this comes up I say the same thing. Ireland will not be bounced into a referendum on unity by a crisis in the UK."

@inniu, thank you for saying that so well.

Even this small thread shows how different we all are. I see it like we are all part of a big cake, different layers, some nuts, but are bound together.

Op - not unreasonable to ask at all and thank you to the kind and informed mners who've explained as I struggle to understand it too and I DO watch the news and read lots on such matters, but given there are a lot of people deliberately or unknowingly giving incorrect or contradictory information even in the msm, even in the same article or news item it's very confusing.

FocalPoint - there's been numerous threads asking that to no avail despite there being some very vocal brexiters and very knowledgeable Remainers on mn, even on social media and on more "serious" media outlets I have yet to come across ONE single, verifiable known pro to leaving the eu!

Even when brexiters are asked directly they NEVER come up with anything except vague "sovereignty" "take back our borders" bullshit and even when asked to specifically explain what we will be able to do with eg borders that we can't as part of Eu they can't answer.

"here in Ireland we like staying alive and not getting bombed so Ireland needs to be talked about, over and over. And handing NI over to ROI would cause a bit more trouble than orangemen marching." I suspect in addition to not giving a stuff about the people of NI that people with the attitude of not caring about the effect of brexit on NI border and all its ramifications are also ignorant that the bombings weren't just in NI! At the very least self preservation should dictate that such twits don't want to be bombed themselves!

I've been flamed for this opinion before but I think as things worsen there's a very real possibility that NI will leave the uk and either reunify with Republic of Ireland or become an independent country within the EU, as a Scot who voted no on indyref I'm also seeing/hearing a far greater appetite for Scotland to go independent but be a member of the eu too.

Brexiters could in my opinion be very much responsible for the demise of the U.K.

"Well, it might help if kids learned these things in their history lessons. Much of Britain's colonial history isn't taught, and Britain/Ireland/Troubles never even mentioned."

Brexit has very much highlighted to many the poor history and political education in English (and I think but not totally sure) Welsh schools. I'm a Scot of Irish Catholic descent who attended English high schools (army brat) and I realised even at the time of my own education some 30 odd years ago that the VERY little being taught in English schools about non-English uk history was horrifically inaccurate, misleading and biased towards English glorification. I strongly feel it explains at least in part why we get such attitudes as "yea Scotland can fuck right off we find them anyway" and "all Irish Catholics are troublemaking terrorists or terrorist supporters"

I had ONE term in my entire education on "the troubles" and that only happened because it was the subject of a major history GCSE paper! Between my own background/heritage and coincidentally having an Irish Catholic history teacher at the time there was a shocking amount of stuff we had to learn to SAY was what happened to give the "right" answers for the exam, which was thankfully balanced by my parents/family's own experience/knowledge (the first time it came up in the class the assigned teacher was off sick for the first week of that term and we had a "normal" English teacher take the lesson and I came home upset, having basically been told "Protestant good - catholic bad evil terrorists" - my parents were unimpressed to say the least and explained that there were belligerents on BOTH sides of the conflict).

Dd has been raised and educated in Scotland and the difference between her education and mine and that of friends who are still in England and their kids being educated in England is HUGE! Particularly on this subject.

"I find it unreasonable that the IRA would commit terrorist atrocities simply because of a basic border, but that is essentially what is being said." CLASSIC example of the ignorance and arrogance of some created by the poor education on "the troubles" - there is FAR more to it all than "IRA threats" - suggest @Lizzzar REALLY needs to do a LOT more reading/educating themselves to understand it all - hint: it's not just Catholics that did the bombing!

It WAS mentioned during the campaign particularly by Remain campaigners but was ignored especially by the msm.

"you are now writing to your MPs and telling them how important it is." Not necessary in my case, my MP (also a Scot of Irish Catholic descent) is very aware of the issue and has been very vocal in giving his opinion on how much it has been treated as an afterthought in the whole bloody mess!!

"Phrases such as safety net and insurance policy (which the backstop is) were deliberately not used publically as it gave the impression that Brexit might be more difficult than people thought or were promised. They're "panicky" words as opposed to vague phrases such as backstop." Exactly! I wish people understood better that words have meaning, and that politicians understand this very well! Understand that they help create bias and misunderstanding.

"There isn't another country which has the same tension over border issues." Er...

People comparing to borders between countries who aren't and haven't in living memory been involved in violent conflicts with each other is plain disingenuous! A closer example might be Cyprus with its own history of partition and conflict and British occupation and they have a UN buffer zone! So it's not necessarily unique to NI. There are certainly also countries within the eu who are surrounded by other eu countries with whom they have a "chequered" and not altogether easy history and where there are residents who while "officially" being residents of one country consider themselves nationalists of the country nearby across the border, borders are pretty arbitrarily decided, and frequently changed/disputed. Several episodes of "who do you think are?" Have had participants who's ancestors - without moving an inch - have had their official nationality changed due to political changes 2, 3 or more times! I'm particularly thinking of Alsace but know there are others.

I'm old enough to still be confused about all the changes in the areas that used to be called Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia! I still have to google to double check which of the current countries used to be Czechoslovakia and which Yugoslavia, I wish I could retain the information better and understand the region more ably. I'm still overwhelmed and amazed at the number of countries that used to be (albeit colloquially? - see I'm not entirely sure even on that!) referred to as "Russia" when part of the USSR.

"What is unnerving me about this thread is that MN is still full of people blasting their Leaver opinions (when they aren't flouncing off as uncomfortable questions are asked). Do they know this stuff are are down playing it? Or do they just not know?" I think it's worse than that, for some it is definitely lack of knowledge/understanding - but for a significant number it's that they don't CARE! They stupidly think it will only have life or death ramifications for the Irish/northern Irish and won't affect them. And sadly I think the only way to GET them to CARE is to remind them that bombings of "civilian targets" on English soil happened and that whatever your opinion on the matter it won't make you immune to a fucking bombing!

I remember my parents having to check the car before even unlocking it, friends losing parents to bombings, having to have security checks done on our person & vehicles when going home as we were entering fenced in bases if our quarter at that posting was in the fence line, being unable to travel at certain times because there had been a threat made, school evacuations because of (thankfully all hoax) bomb threats... The people of NI and ROI absolutely had it worst but people are being very naive and wilfully forgetful if they think it ONLY affected the island of Ireland. There were bombings and other terror attacks relating to the troubles not only in the rest of the U.K. But also in the rest of Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if non British eu politicians especially those in the eu parliament are concerned for their own safety as well as that of residents of NI and ROI.

"I cannot believe Boris Johnson can't see the ramifications." He is NOT the bumbling buffoon he tries to portray, he can SEE very well, he simply doesn't CARE! As a PM and future retired PM he will have the best security of anyone British apart from the royal family, it's extremely unlikely his own personal safety will be at risk or even his family's so he has no reason to CARE.

"I don't know much about wales or Scotland so they are next on my list. I am still angry that school didn't teach me this." Prepare to become even angrier! I made an effort to learn much more about scots history when we moved back up and dd started learning it at school as I wanted to support what she was learning and be sure what I knew was accurate to do so. In doing that I discovered that the minimal scots history I'd been taught in England (mainly in relation to the Tudors and then King James vi) was horrifically prejudiced and wildly inaccurate! It's truly shocking how inaccurate much of what is taught in English schools about uk history is!

"When I moved to England - a one line mention,"Wales was conquered." Says it all really.

This is the mindset of the English ruling class." Yep! That pretty much sums up my experience of how non English uk history was/is taught in England.

"Then there is a simple solution - revoke A50." Ugh! We can but dream! Highly unlikely but a glimmer of hope!

"A referendum in 2016 gave a decisive majority" there's a lot of us disagree it was "decisive"

"Am I correct in thinking the UK doesn't actually have a constitution?" A common misunderstanding. We don't have a WRITTEN constitution as in a single defined document but there is an unwritten one formed by legislation and conventions.

"This is the sort of mess that will exist in Scotland if it gets Independence eventually. Particularly if it decides to go back into Europe after Brexit. If that’s possible..." I agree could be extremely problematic, but not quite the same history as there is with NI, though I suspect quite a few mners will be shocked that there was apparently terrorist activity associated with scottish nationalism. Though there are at least some incidents that were attributed to this that were later discovered to be not the case, but hey, Westminster/English govts and their supporters never try and blame innocent people for horrific events..oh wait!...Guildford four, Birmingham six...

"I was at secondary school in the 1980s and the only information about NI and ' the troubles' as they were referred to, I could get was through watching the news." Which was heavily biased. Do you EVER recall a bombing or any terrorist atrocity or even a threat carried out by unionists being reported on English news? I certainly don't! I DO remember my parents discussing the attack in glasgow in '79 and how shocked they were this wasn't even MENTIONED on English news! We also had the complete nonsense of certain people having to have their voices dubbed on news reports because broadcasting their actual voices was made illegal for several years.

"At school all children were taught that the Catholic plotters were bad and evil." Yep! Great fun at school in early Nov as a catholic - not!

"At the minute, there are still paramilitaries but they don't have support within their communities. People have seen peace and they like it. But trust me when I say, massive disruption to day-to-day life and huge economic penalties will whip us back to the bad old times quicker than we'd like to imagine." Exactly!

Slightly off topic but I don't think that will be purely a NI problem either, economic hardship can and does lead to resentment, fear and anger and such feelings lead to crime, violence and attacks on those who are or who are just perceived to be better off/benefitting from the cause of that hardship - a fact that brexiters generally and brexiter politicians in particular seem to be denying or wilfully ignoring!

Bowsy there's a lot wrong with what you've said. All I'll say is I have a lot of family from the North that would be disgusted with your 'yeah....that's nice, but you're not actually Irish'. Who the fuck made you the authority??

Graphista you are correct. The only bombings I remember being reported were those committed by the IRA.
I remember the soilders who were attacked by Catholics and thinking what the hell is wrong with these people. I also remember thinking what is the Orange Order and what was the potato famine as they were never explained anywhere. My parents didn't know either and had had a similar education so believed what they were taught at school.
I was also taught that Christianity was fact.
I don't think the way history is taught in English schools will change any time soon.

Bowsy I do think you are disconnected living in London. I kinda see what you are saying but you are wrong in my opinion. People from Dublin are very different to people from Cork. But they are Irish. There are posh people in Dublin that speak with an English accent but they are Irish. It is like people from Yorkshire are different to Londoners but they are all English. People from Belfast are different to people from Dublin but they are Irish.

I am curious would you consider a non-catholic born in ROI to be Irish? Because cultural differences would exist.....

I live in Cavan so in ROI, close to the border. I MASSIVELY care about NI and it's citizens - both the ones who identify as Irish and the ones who identify as British. The vast majority are just normal people trying their best and getting along well with their neighbours of all denominations. It's the factions of mad, bad bastards who put it all at risk. I am hoping that there will be a resolution to this but as each day goes on I am losing hope. A hard border - IRA trouble. A border in the sea - Loyalist trouble. So we are fucked.

A person born on the island of Ireland, who was brought up with Irish culture and ways, who shares so much heritage with us can of course be as Irish a citizen as any of us. And I am not sure how anyone could think they are not.

DH's Irish Granny had never set foot in Ireland. I only found that out when I asked him whether his Irish connections were good enough to apply for an Irish passport. Technically I imagine she was British, even though the family originated from near Dublin, because she was born before 1922.

I have Irish friends who live near Dublin and belong to the Church of Ireland, and yes, they are 100% Irish.

@peregrina
Your DHs granny is legally both Irish and British.

Every time this comes up I say the same thing. Ireland will not be bounced into a referendum on unity by a crisis in the UK.

I agree @Inniu. There seems to be the idea that the backstop is being used as a ploy by ROI to force the issue and somehow get one over on the British. This could not be further from the truth. Ireland was and is perfectly happy with the status quo, people value peace after years of horrific violence and we understand that there are no winners only losers in any attempt to mess with the GFA. Unfortunately much of Westminster and the British media just cannot get their heads around any of this idea that we do value peace above all else. There is no ulterior motive to rush to force a vote on unification.

www.politico.eu/article/ireland-northern-no-deal-brexit-patients-data-medical-records-privacy/

Another example of the damage Brexit will cause in Ireland, north and south.
In border areas healthcare is done on an all Ireland basis but medical records will no longer transferable.
I know cancer nurses have also said they will have difficulty visiting people at home in border areas as they can’t bring their drugs across the border.

Bowsy I wouldn't agree with you, I live in the South of Ireland but I wouldn't see those living in Northern Ireland any less Irish. To me they are Irish living in the Uk, just like other who are now living in Scotland or England. Someone in Tyrone is as Irish as someone from Donegal.

She's neither now, since she's passed away! But she strongly identified as Irish, and I don't think she ever regarded herself as English.

I lived in RoI for 7 years, unfortunately Bowsy5 is not alone in her thinking.

Dione - my suspicion is that it is the older generation that feel this way. Would you agree? At least in my family that is how it presents.

I think Bowsy is all about the feelz, jewel, with the cognitive dissonance that comes with that. In her mind WB Yeats is obviously Irish, and maybe even Seamus Heaney is too, and perhaps we were all Irish prior to partition, but now only some of us are. Maybe President McAleese is Irish but John Hume is not. Though if WB and Seamus Heaney are Irish, maybe John Hume and David Trimble can be too. Maybe if everyone in NI is awarded a Nobel prize. Maybe Paddy Barnes and Wayne McCullough are, as they won Olympic medals for Ireland, so maybe people really good at sports can be Irish too. Barry McGuigan scraped into not being judged by Bowsy by a few miles, lucky for him. So did John McGahern. Maybe prior to 1949 nobody was really Irish at all as we were all considered to be British subjects, sorry about that John McGahern, you're out. So are my parents.

Maybe we should take a closer look at those Olympic medals prior to 1949. In fact, due to a dispute about the Irish athletic association recognising all of Ireland as Irish, there was no team representing Ireland at the 1936 Olympics as the Irish association were disqualified by the IAAF (International Association of Athletics Federation), almost certainly denying Pat O'Callaghan his third Olympic medal. I'm sure Bowsy considers that right and proper.

CS Lewis, you're out, despite being born before partition. William Trevor, even though you were born in the Free State, I think you're out too. Being born in Ireland, of Irish parents, being legally Irish and feeling Irish, it just isn't enough for Bowsy. James Joyce, if they aren't in, I think you're a goner too. Being Catholic isn't even enough for Bowsy.

Wolfe Tone, sorry, not Irish. Henry Joy McCracken. Not Irish. Charles Stuart Parnell, not Irish. Robert Emmet, not Irish. British subjects, the lot of them. Hugh O'Neill, sorry, Tyrone wasn't Irish then and it's not Irish now. Éamon De Valera, are you fucking joking, sher weren't you born in America? And isn't your name George? You can't just be Irish because you feel it and you're legally Irish, Bowsy says. It doesn't matter what you did or didn't do. You're not the same as real Irish people.

Do forgive me if I haven't covered enough people who aren't Irish. It's just that I have to have a tough conversation with my DH who was born in England about how he's not really Irish. I know he had Irish parents, and he was raised in Ireland from a young age, and he has an Irish accent, and he's legally Irish, but you know, what Bowsy feels personally overrides that.

Apileofballyhoo - bloody brilliant post!

If (not sure I understood that post totally) bowsy5 has lived in London 80 odd years then they were born before 1949 which you say was before the Republic of Ireland existed?

(Don't profess to be an expert on the subject but I thought partition happened in the 1920's?)

But still point well made.

Bowsy5's insulting and offensive posts have thankfully been well addressed by those with more knowledge (and I would honestly say more right to if they are also Irish - be they from the ROI or NI. With me only being of Irish descent and 3 generations removed).

Bualadh bos do apileofballyhoo

Partition was 1921. Irish Free State 1922 - officially a dominion. 1937 - new constitution, and effectively a republic. Irish citizens still considered British subjects by the UK. 1949 - declared a republic.

British nationality act came into force 1949 when Irish citizens were no longer considered by the UK to be British.

Apile - you certainly know your stuff. Good points, very well made....

There seems to be the idea that the backstop is being used as a ploy by ROI to force the issue and somehow get one over on the British. This could not be further from the truth. Ireland was and is perfectly happy with the status quo, people value peace after years of horrific violence and we understand that there are no winners only losers in any attempt to mess with the GFA. Unfortunately much of Westminster and the British media just cannot get their heads around any of this idea that we do value peace above all else. There is no ulterior motive to rush to force a vote on unification.

Well said BackInTime.