So Johnson has 30 days to come up with an alternative to the backstop......

[Bearbehind]

This will be interesting to watch!

you haven't addressed agriculture. Equally, none of what you are suggesting guarantees raw materials are compliant

UK imports food and drink products from all over the World. Obviously considered safe to do so. Take a look at the link:

www.glotechrepairs.co.uk/news/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/world-food-imports-full-size.png

But they will be after entering NI illegally so what happens then, just because they can't enter the mainland doesn't mean they haven't entered the UK

At point of departure there is a duty for; ports, airlines and land borders to check whether or no the person wishing to travel has the correct documentation for the Country of destination. If person can't show evidence of such documentation such as a Visa in passport or letter from immigration of Country of destination then travel will be refused.

So a foreigner may have permission to enter ROI, but may not have permission to enter UK after Brexit. If such person was to appear at immigration control on UK mainland they would be sent back to where they came from.

@MysteryTripAgain So a foreigner may have permission to enter ROI, but may not have permission to enter UK after Brexit. If such person was to appear at immigration control on UK mainland they would be sent back to where they came from.

There is no immigration control from NI to mainland UK, fuckwit, that's the whole point.

I guess a bit odd that you need a passport to get from Mainland to NI when according to some people it is one country - doesn’t affect me and I support self-determination but just find the DUP views a bit odd in this context.

I don’t think the problem is just the manufacture and production of good in UK. If we trade deals with US and China and they have different standards from EU - what is to stop US products (eg chlorine chicken) from going via NI to ROI and the rest of Europe? Unless you have a border? Who thinks the US will agree to a deal where only Goods meeting EU standards can be exported to UK???

There is no immigration control from NI to mainland UK,

Putting that in creates a Border.

But there is immigration control if you need a passport right? I mean - if they look in the passport and find out it is from Europe then they check and see if any documentation that says they can be in NI or UK???

Who is they? I haven't been to Ireland for a long time, but we were on a cycling holiday, and we cycled off the boat in exactly the same way as we would have cycled off a UK ferry. No one stopped us.

@Namenic - But there is immigration control if you need a passport right

Not on ferries. There is on planes.

@MysteryTripAgain - you haven't addressed agriculture, in particular the movement of animals.

Imports at the moment are required to comply with EU rules. I have no faith that this would continue. Nor does the EU.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my question: Do you consider the UK electoral system democratic? Yes or no?

@Namenic - I guess a bit odd that you need a passport to get from Mainland to NI

I misread your previous question as passport etc between Ireland and mainland UK. You need formal id on planes so realistically you need a passport. However, that's an airline requirement. For ferries, you need some form of id for adults. A work id or similar will suffice though. Again, this is a ferry policy to check you match the name on the ticket.

I have no idea what the id required for movement between NI and GB. Sorry for the incorrect response.

@Namenic - But there is immigration control if you need a passport right?

If it's the same as Ireland/GB, then it's just id for the carrier.

Even if there was controls between NI and the rest of the UK, it's ok for all theses illegal foreigners to enter NI and stay there, so a city in NI could become the new Calais. These foreigners when entering NI have technically entered the Uk so how is this protecting your borders.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/movingcountry/movinggabroad/freedomoffmovementwithinntheeu/commonntravelareaabetweenirelanddandthee_uk.html

I imagine that Westminster wouldn't care if we had a "Calais" situation in NI. They have shown complete disregard for us here and most educated people in NI are on a path to despising the British government. In the run up to the referendum news here was full off the issue with the border but Westminster chose to prioritise lies over facts. Hence we are now hurtling towards a No deal and I hope and pray for a united Ireland.

There is no immigration control from NI to mainland UK, fuckwit, that's the whole point

For British and Irish citizens yes. Was referring to someone not from EU, but who had obtained permission to enter ROI (Tourist Visa, Business trips, etc). If they did not have same permission to enter UK they should not be permitted to cross over from ROI to NI which is part of UK.

If we trade deals with US and China and they have different standards from EU - what is to stop US products (eg chlorine chicken) from going via NI to ROI and the rest of Europe?

UK already has trade deals with US. NHS buys a large amount of drugs from US. Quantities are sufficient to enable NHS to obtain good prices. EU had trade deals with US too. Some US products are not allowed due to EU requirements.

Both UK and EU import from China. So must meet regulatory requirements for such goods.

@MysteryTripAgain - If they did not have same permission to enter UK they should not be permitted to cross over from ROI to NI which is part of UK.

And that would be a border, which would contravene the GFA.

Some US products are not allowed due to EU requirements.

But if the UK is no longer in the EU, then these restrictions no longer apply unless the UK include that as part of a trade deal with the US. I can't see trump agreeing to that.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my question: Do you consider the UK electoral system democratic? Yes or no?

you haven't addressed agriculture, in particular the movement of animals

I remember the BSE in mid 90s and the foot and mouth outbreak in 2001 in UK. If ROI fear similar incidents in the future they would have to enforce controls on any livestock crossing from NI to ROI.

Imports at the moment are required to comply with EU rules. I have no faith that this would continue. Nor does the EU

All the more reason for EU to agree a free trade deal with the UK. The current approach of settle accounts and complete WA before the future relationship between EU and UK is discussed is not working. Certainly the intent of Article 50 according to the author who was European Convention General Secretary at the time.

Future trade should be discussed at same time as WA. That way UK leaves the EU on 31 October under the current terms, but on 1 November moves over to the new terms. None of this no man's land in the middle while trade talks start after leaving the EU. Guaranteed to make the border an issue.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my question: Do you consider the UK electoral system democratic

Mixed views on that question. Can see the pros and cons of both the current seat system and the PR system. Can't see the existing system changing. As long as conservatives and labour are the two major parties that benefit from the current system they will not want to change. However, possible that brexit will result in the two major parties being replaced? Labour's Brexit policy still not clear and conservatives have not yet delivered.

And that would be a border, which would contravene the GFA

GFA talks about parity for citizens of NI and ROI. No reference to persons who are outside those categories. Solution is that Visa applications to visit ROI by person who is not EU would have to include a section about whether or not same person intended to enter NI. If yes then same person has to present evidence that they have permission to enter NI before ROI issues visa to enter ROI.

To prevent such persons entering NI without permission ROI would have to make checks. If not then, as other posters have commented, NI takes the risk of becoming the UK equivalent of Calais.

@MysteryTripAgain - If ROI fear similar incidents in the future they would have to enforce controls on any livestock crossing from NI to ROI.

So again, you are suggesting it is up to Ireland to sort out the UK's mess. The UK are the one's leaving. It is up to them to do so in a way that complies with their obligations under the GFA. Equally, this suggestion would not deal with the current agricultural situation on the island of Ireland. Maybe do a bit of research into what actually happens at the moment before suggesting options that won't work.

All the more reason for EU to agree a free trade deal with the UK.

The EU is happy to do this, although an FTA does not necessarily prevent a border. Something of the nature of Norway plus would be required. However, in the event that a satisfactory agreement cannot be made, the backstop acts as a protection for the GFA. Ideally, an appropriate deal and appropriate measures to protect the GFA will ensure the backstop is never invoked. If the UK were so confident that these measures exist, then the backstop would not be an issue as they could simply identify the measures to the EU. The EU have repeatedly said they are happy to listen.

Future trade should be discussed at same time as WA

That is the purpose of the transition period.

Mixed views on that question. Can see the pros and cons of both the current seat system and the PR system. Can't see the existing system changing. As long as conservatives and labour are the two major parties that benefit from the current system they will not want to change. However, possible that brexit will result in the two major parties being replaced? Labour's Brexit policy still not clear and conservatives have not yet delivered.

That still doesn't answer my question. It's a simple yes/no question. Do you consider the UK electoral system to be a democratic system?

@MysteryTripAgain - To prevent such persons entering NI without permission ROI would have to make checks.

You are again showing your ignorance of the situation on the island of Ireland. The GFA means we do not need to place checks on the border and we are certainly not required to do so. If the UK want to stop people crossing the border, it is up to them to install checks.

There are 208 border crossings on a 500km border. Have a look at this to see what the crossings look like. In some cases, the border runs along the middle of a road. On one section of the Dublin to Belfast motorway, traffic travelling in one direction is in the North while that travelling in the opposite direction is in the South.

Here's a video showing a 6 mile stretch where you cross the border 4 times in 10 minutes.

But EU nationals are welcome in Ireland, we are not trying to prevent them from entering. The UK keep saying there is no need for a border yet are going to stop freedom of movement. It is not Ireland's responsibility to stop people entering the Uk. I think the real reason this isn't an issue is because this will affect NI and the precious mainland won't be 'tainted'. It infuriates me that brexiteers keeps saying there is no need for a border when clearly there is huge issues that will dramatically impact NI, especially the border counties on both sides.

It is up to them to do so in a way that complies with their obligations under the GFA

No such statement in GFA that if either North or South left the EU it was sole responsibility of the part that left EU to ensure GFA maintenance.

Parity of rights, mutual consent and self determination between North and South seem to be the key elements of the GFA.

GFA makes several references to EU such as:

Coordination between the Assembly and UK of EU issues. Obviously when UK leaves the EU this requirement is no longer applicable to UK, but ROI as an EU member will have to coordinate both GFA and EU requirements.

GFA also makes it the responsibility of North and South to resolve disagreements including any in relation to the EU. This too is inoperable as NI will not be in the EU when UK leaves the EU. So it then becomes South to resolve any disagreement arising from EU.

Reference is made in GFA to implementation of EU policies by North and South. Easy when both are in the EU. This is the ROI conundrum in that it has to find a way to balance EU policy and GFA. North does not have that issue as they will cease to be an EU member. Even Varadkar has acknowledged that if no deal occurs there will have to be checks on goods entering ROI from NI

Strand Three of the GFA describes the role of the BIC (British Irish Council). They are to meet regularly to exchange information that is of mutual interests including EU issues.

This is the error. The BIC failed to take into account Article 50 that entitles any of the EU members to leave the EU by making an amendment to the GFA to cover such eventuality.

Many references made to EU; policies, programmes and issues within GFA, but ignored when Article 50 developed and agreed by ROI and UK.

Astonishing

Assuming mysterytrip is correct can you see what this is a shitstorm for the regular people living in NI and those in ROI????? It's a bloody disaster. Typical cocky English attitude. Do what you like and leave the rest to clean up your mass. Fucking ridiculous. And No wonder the nationalists are growing strength here!

@MysteryTripAgain - No such statement in GFA that if either North or South left the EU it was sole responsibility of the part that left EU to ensure GFA maintenance.

Of course there is no such statement in the GFA. It is a normal assumption that a signatory to an international peace treaty will act with integrity and not take action that will unilaterally break that treaty.

This is the error. The BIC failed to take into account Article 50 that entitles any of the EU members to leave the EU by making an amendment to the GFA to cover such eventuality.

No. The error was assuming the UK would act with integrity and uphold their obligations under the GFA. As I have said before, Ireland's decision not to join Schengen was based purely on the fact the UK did not want to join. If Ireland had joined, they would have acted in a way that may have prevented them from complying with their obligations under the GFA. They acted with integrity in that situation as they would not act in a way that had potential to break the terms of the GFA.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my question: Do you consider the UK electoral system to be a democratic system?