So Johnson has 30 days to come up with an alternative to the backstop......

[Bearbehind]

This will be interesting to watch!

So you think it is reasonable that Ireland would be expected to effectively leave the CU and SM

Why would a free trade deal between EU and UK require Ireland to leave the CU and SM?

I don’t know what leavers will think when they find that there will still be freedom of movement of people from Europe into England (for example) via ROI and NI

Different channels for arrivals in UK mainland depending on which passport they hold solves that. Remember those in NI are entitked to both Irish and British passport.

Friction less border for manufactured goods might work, but food products and live animals I can't see it working.

Your discussion is becoming irrelevant now it looks like parliament will be suspended. The £ has already fallen even further.

Wait for the first leaver to loose their job or home and wonder how it happened!

@MysteryTripAgain - Why would a free trade deal between EU and UK require Ireland to leave the CU and SM?

Assuming the UK do not comply with EU standards on all goods, animal health etc (and why not just stay in the SM otherwise) then Ireland would not be able to guarantee that non-compliant goods are not entering the EU. This would then require checks on goods going from Ireland to roEU.

You still haven't answered my question: Do you consider the UK electoral system democratic? If not, why not and what are you doing to ensure it becomes democratic?

Do you require a passport/driving licence to travel between NI and UK? Not everyone has these.

@Namenic - Do you require a passport/driving licence to travel between NI and UK?

Technically not. But realistically yes.

Assuming the UK do not comply with EU standards on all goods, animal health etc

UK has been following EU standards for last 46 years. Can’t see why they would not do so in the future. Remember it is the intention of both EU and UK to trade with each other after Brexit. So alignment of standards will be required.

Is the current UK system democratic?

If people like being able to vote for local MP they can approach then the seat system is the only way. Based on personal experience when stepdaughter was applying for citizenship being able to seek help from a local MP was priceless. Immigration department fobbed her off for a year saying application under process. MP got it sorted in a few weeks.

If people want parliament to reflect exactly how the population as a whole voted then a PR system has to be adopted.

@MysteryTripAgain - Can’t see why they would not do so in the future.

And there was me thinking the UK wanted to be able to set their own standards, make deals with whomever they want (with consequent importation of non-compliant products) and basically just "take back control". There is no way of guaranteeing standards if the UK is doing that. And I certainly wouldn't be relying on their word, given the lack of integrity we have seen wrt GFA.

If people like being able to vote for local MP they can approach then the seat system is the only way.

That is not an answer to my question Do you consider the UK electoral system democratic? If not, why not and what are you doing to ensure it becomes democratic?

And it's also nonsense. Our TDs are extremely easy to approach and do a lot of constituency work.

The first part of my question is a simple yes/no one. Can you answer one or the other?

At this point in time is this thread still relevant? Does today’s move mean that backstop or no backstop the ERG runs the show and we’ll crash out? If parliament is not sitting during the 30 days (countdown already started. Not Angela’s timer, on BJ self-set clock) there’s no chance of any proposal to be discussed in parliament and therefore proposed to the EU with the support of parliament

So I guess we can say that Boris has failed to up with an alternative?

UK economy is 80% services so trade deals with non eu countries will not be restricted solely to physical goods. Imports are mostly for internal use and consumption as opposed to selling on to other countries.

Checks on standards can be done at source in the same way as companies establish approved vendors. QA people visit factories and check standards. Then random checks are done when goods arrive at final destination

The current system worked for me as an individual so I will stick with it.

@MysteryTripAgain - The current system worked for me as an individual so I will stick with it.

That still doesn't answer the question - Do you consider the UK electoral system democratic? Yes or no?

Imports are frequently used as raw materials. The products are then often exported. If I have a quick look in my food cupboards, I can see many products produced in the UK. The raw materials for many of these were imported into the UK.

What about the agricultural industry? Not quite as simple.

Your suggestion also relies on us trusting the UK to comply with regulations. There is nothing in the past few years that suggests that trust would be anything other than an act of stupidity.

So Ireland/EU should just take the UKs word that products will be up to EU standards, that's ok then but only if they pinky promise.!!

Imports are frequently used as raw materials. The products are then often exported

What about the agricultural industry? Not quite as simple

Your suggestion also relies on us trusting the UK to comply with regulations

Does not prevent checks being made at source when manufacturers and food suppliers are audited for compliance to become approved by end users. Random checks are then done at final destination.

There is nothing in the past few years that suggests that trust would be anything other than an act of stupidity

That’s why random checks are made at final destinations. If standards are not maintained suppliers are notified and may even be struck off approved lists until auditors have made another at source check.

'Different channels for arrivals in UK mainland depending on which passport they hold solves that'
But they will be after entering NI illegally so what happens then, just because they can't enter the mainland doesn't mean they haven't entered the UK.

@MysteryTripAgain - you haven't addressed agriculture. Equally, none of what you are suggesting guarantees raw materials are compliant.

@MysteryTripAgain - Oh, and I'm still waiting for you to answer the question: Do you consider the UK electoral system democratic? Yes or no?

UK has been following EU standards for last 46 years. Can’t see why they would not do so in the future.

I can. The University of Sussex has been monitoring the agricultural laws passed in anticipation of Brexit. They have already begun to ditch some EU requirements; which conveniently will align new laws more with American ones. I agree that if we really want to trade with our nearest neighbours we will have to keep to EU standards. Some firms won't be able to cope with two sets of standards, so will leave the market.

We are definitely coming out. Amazing news. 3 years waiting. Deal or no deal.

@Thornhill58 ok, and then what?

@Thornhill58 try these as a trial run
www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/brexiters-told-to-try-walking-away-with-no-deal-in-everyday-life-and-see-how-that-works-for-them-20181121179706

@Thornhill58 - I’m assuming you are joking?

Parker absolutely not. I'm a Brexiteer and I'm looking forward to leave that's what I voted for in 2016. No more delays, no more excuses. I am delighted with Boris.
People talk about democracy only when is convenient.
I do not believe we are crashing out and I do not believe we are going to be worse off on the contrary. Uncertainty makes things worse.
What's the point of asking the people and then doing your absolute best to implement the result.
I do not understand the devotion to the EU. Bunch of corrupt unelected individuals with too much power. I am not going to be part of a federal union or a tax alignment. Not now not ever.

Not to implement the result.

@Thornhill58 - what positives do we have to look forward to? I’m assuming that either you or your family work in the car industry, supply chain, petrol refinery, financial services or any research organisation?