Healing Divisions

[Camomila]

My latest Brexit worry...

If we Brexit, the country is going to be divided, angry, and poorer. But even if we don't, there'll be some angry people.

[LouiseCollins28]

Re Norway, I agree that it is possible that Brexit could be done in stages but I do think that FOM is a virtual deal breaker for the Norway model for many and ECJ oversight is for some more.

I’d be OK with a Norway type Brexit personally at this point, and EFTA as an “alternative” trading association does have its attractions but I think the time at which that sort of compromise position could be amicably reached is past. It might still be the destination, I wouldn’t rule it out but gettting their amicably, that’s gone.

[MeganBacon]

When Trump won, the analysis showed a similar pattern there. People who have paid their dues but feel others are able to get their hands on it without working as hard as they did were very susceptible to the rhetoric (e.g. in the US, people about to qualify for Medicare did not like Obamacare).
What underlies a lot of the reasons why people voted leave is the widening poverty gap and austerity, encouraging people to hunker down, narrower vision, fewer friends. Hillary kept talking about white privilege which provoked a strong negative reaction in white people who had absolutely nothing to show for their lives and not much hope. Similarly, Cameron/Osborne talked about the catastrophe that would happen if we left but it was their austerity (as it was perceived) that had landed those voters in the dire situation they found themselves in. With the benefit of hindsight, so predictable. We can only heal the rift with understanding of how poverty and hopelessness make some (a lot) of people susceptible to populist rhetoric, a responsible government will address that in order to re-unify people. I know it's been said before.

There is an entirely separate group of Leave voters who are middle class and can afford the luxury of principles about the EU. This is alluded to upthread with some posters implying Clav is well off therefore her view somehow less relevant. Those posters were surprised when they won - Boris's face the morning after - they underestimated the numbers of disenfranchised voters who would side with them because they are probably very disconnected from those people. HIs OMG moment was, I think, when he realised he would have to deal with the poverty. He hadn't realised before but in that moment, he realised for sure.
The real question should have been something more like: for the chance to right what is wrong with the EU (list .....) and/or be a sovereign nation (pros/cons of that.....) do you think it's worth the social turbulence that we will need to deal with if we exit (facts figures about vulnerable demographics). Obviously that's far too nuanced, but with retrospect, it would be something like that.

[bellinisurge]

@MeganBacon , fair enough. But I will not tolerate lecturing on how No Deal isn't a problem from people like @Clavinova who are obviously cushioned from its worst likely effects (for now). Or their fans who got us into this mess by trusting them. And who then can't admit they made a mistake by trusting them.

[54321go]

What has not helped is that the UK has deliberately taken a non cop
operative stance when in discussions at the eP for the last 10 years or more. They have deliberately held up or argued against aspects that would improve the running of the EU.
Of course there are some things wrong in the EU, entirely natural when you consider the massive scope from the high production capability of Germany and the poor Eastern European countries only recently free from the USSR and it's influence.
The fact that the UK has been deliberately shitting in the bed is one of the worst aspects.
I voted Remain, but for common decency the UK needs to leave until it gets it's head around a collaborative world. Sadly not available in the current timeframe.
There are of course some 'leavers' who are European, elements from the leave parties in Italy, Spain, France etc. Most of them are not in power.

[KennDodd]

Most Leavers I know personally are nothing but nasty little racist, I don't want to come together with them.

[tomtom1999xx]

There will never be healing because remainers are still too angry about it all. Some of them will never accept brexit, so will carry on being angry about it.
It’s not really anything to do with leave voters.

[KennDodd]

It’s not really anything to do with leave voters.

Yes it is. They voted to do real damage to people's lives, then get upset about being called names. If their lovely Brexit ends the fragile peace in NI (which large numbers think will be worth it) they will also have blood on their hands, afterall, as they have said so often, they knew what they voted for.

[Helmetbymidnight]

its hard to think of healing while many leavers still don't realise what they've done to their friends, family and country.

[TemporaryPermanent]

Personally, i had a one night stand with a no-deal Brexiter. He was lovely.

#healingdivisions
#doingmybit
#nationalunity

[Jason118]

@TemporaryPermanent one is not a representative sample. Let us know when you've done a few thousand

[BubblesBuddy]

What type of person is hit hard by austerity measures and then thinks Leaving the EU will help them? They didn’t really think this. They just gave a big kicking, as they saw it, to Cameron. Instead they have kicked themselves, again!

[bellinisurge]

It's an awful lot to do with Leave voters. Especially those maintaining the fiction that No Deal is fiiiiine. Are you seriously blaming Remain voters for not bending over for this shit @tomtom1999xx . Good luck with that part of your fantasy.

[TheElementsSong]

It’s not really anything to do with leave voters

Yeah, it's entirely the fault of Remainers or anybody who could possibly have voted Remain, based on which country people's parents shagged in, and on whether people decide to move from the country their parents shagged in, their surnames, on which employers they have worked for, whether they are tourists of particular nationalities, and other characteristics which mean that they are assumed to be inherently dubious.

[tomtom1999xx]

TheElementsSong
Healing divisions is mainly in your court, because you’re the ones who are aggrieved. You’re the ones who need to come to terms with a situation you feel is completely out of your control.
You clearly feel that life will be absolutely terrible for you and the country as a whole and need someone to blame.
Leave voters can not be held personally responsible for how individual remainers cope with the result of a referendum.
Although some remainers on here feel all leave voters should be eradicated, which explains why very few leavers engage in brexit debates.

[BeardedMum]

I do hold leave voters entirely responsible for Brexit and everything in its wake. We do know a lot about how it will turn out because we already have that information available to us!

[Mistigri]

I do hold leave voters entirely responsible for Brexit and everything in its wake. We do know a lot about how it will turn out because we already have that information available to us!

I don't hold 2016 leave voters responsible because they were lied to by criminals.

OTOH I sincerely hope that anyone who still supports a no deal Brexit is first in line for job losses and medicine shortages.

[BeardedMum]

I also hold the 2016 leave voters responsible because it was plenty of information available then too and liars back then are still lying now.

[bellinisurge]

"Although some remainers on here feel all leave voters should be eradicated, which explains why very few leavers engage in brexit debates"
What a load of silly petulant nonsense.

[bellinisurge]

This just popped up on my newsfeed.
From the Independent: "Just 34 per cent of voters want a Halloween no deal if no agreement possible – blowing hole in prime minister’s claim of a mandate"
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/no-deal-brexit-boris-public-opinion-poll-against-delay-cancel-second-referendum-a9062686.html

[TheElementsSong]

tomtom's "reply" to me 17-Aug-19 08:09:14 is just utterly bizarre as it addresses nothing I said in my post. Just, very ironically, a generalised rant against Remainers being the ones causing divisions, because they clocked me as such. And ending with an absolutely delicious bit of victimised hyperbole.

Perhaps it's a form of performance art 🤔

[Jason118]

Perhaps it's a form of performance
No, just a shit post

[MeganBacon]

I don't blame leavers at all. They were asked a stupid question, then TM triggered A50 without a plan and a large majority in MPs agreed with her. Those are the two big mistakes, made by people whose job it is to know better.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

With the Brexit vote I think the phrase "inconvient truths or comforting lies" applies.

People are caustious when buying a second hand car or buying a house but blase about voting leave and believing people like Johnson and Farage.

[MysteryTripAgain]

Brexit has not happened yet and there is still time for a deal. Other than potentially being able to dodge payment of the £39 Billion (questionable), everyone is a loser.

Divisions will last many years to come. Miners strike was 35 years ago, but still remembered.

[yolofish]

My family is global - Irish, South American, some in Oz and US. These divisions run pretty bloody deep, and I dont think they will ever be healed - because those who are used to freedom of movement, and who enjoy the fact that pretty much up until now, wherever you live you can be friends with someone who could have come from pretty much anywhere, will not accept what we seem to have become in the UK, and that all our children will no longer have the same opportunities that we did.