Healing Divisions

[Camomila]

My latest Brexit worry...

If we Brexit, the country is going to be divided, angry, and poorer. But even if we don't, there'll be some angry people.

[Clavinova]

my children went to the local comp

Every comp can be your local comp if you move into the catchment area.

[jasjas1973]

Anything Cameron said about leaving the EU was Project Fear!
it was dismissed as scaremongering, Clav has said so on numerous occasions.
Several Brexitiers said we would stay in the SM and oft referred to Norway and Switzerland.

Plenty of 1st and 2nd gen immigrants voted Leave, i don't see that coming from Italy or Spain automatically makes someone a remainer.

Anyhow, i thought 'exit mania was sweeping Europe??? Lol!

I 'll say one thing for Clav, she/he does perfectly show why the UK will be split for decades to come.

[Jason118]

@Clavinova have you tried to get a council house swap to get into a catchment area? It's impossible

[TheElementsSong]

EU citizens of course - EU academics who spent the first 25-30 years in an EU country before moving to the UK - now working for English universities (info courtesy of LinkedIn) are highly likely to support remain - bloody obvious I would think - are you being obtuse?

Yes, yes I am.

Because here on this thread you've been coyly trying to make out that your specific concern was the (horror!) academic bias of EU citizens who have (horror!) lived in abroad and are now at British universities (horror!), specifically those evidenced by LinkedIn, and their (horror!) resulting deliberate suppression of research/data positive for Brexit as they probably lack integrity and all.

I suppose everybody doesn't recall that your aspersions upon people tainted by foreignness also extend to pointing out European-sounding author surnames in said research/data, anybody receiving/previously received funding or employment from a European source or company, somebody for being foreign-born, Brits who have lived abroad including those who then became disenfranchised, EU citizens in general for voting in the EU elections, attendees at the Remain marches (all 3 of them, who were doubtless members of the aforementioned groups or a gaggle of EU tourists), and so on.

[TheElementsSong]

Plenty of 1st and 2nd gen immigrants voted Leave, i don't see that coming from Italy or Spain automatically makes someone a remainer. Anyhow, i thought 'exit mania was sweeping Europe??? Lol!

And this too!

[jasjas1973]

Clav really is a card, a remainer, who at the last minute went leave but is now a hardcore no-dealer.... you couldn't make it up.

[Clavinova]

resulting deliberate suppression of research/data positive for Brexit as they probably lack integrity and all.

I am suggesting that many research papers/economic reports are biased - and use statistics/modelling that best suit their argument - you are naive if you think they don't. No doubt I could rustle up half a dozen research papers on the positive benefits of chlorine-washed chicken - paid for by the producers of chlorine-washed chicken.

European-sounding author surnames in said research/data
Easily checked on LinkedIn/university websites.

attendees at the Remain marches
Was that one million marchers or two million?

EU citizens in general for voting in the EU elections

I think I pointed out that EU citizens shouldn't be included in the remain/leave equation because they would not be allowed to vote in a second referendum unless the rules were changed.

received funding or employment from a European source or company
Quite relevant I think - especially EU funded think-tanks.

a gaggle of EU tourists
There are tens/hundreds of thousands of EU tourists and students in London at any one time - why wouldn't a sizeable number attend an anti-Brexit march in London? I would be tempted if I were an EU citizen.

[Clavinova]

jasjas1973

Clav really is a card, a remainer, who at the last minute went leave but is now a hardcore no-dealer....you couldn't make it up.

Almost correct - I did nearly vote remain on the day - I would prefer a deal though (a time limit on the backstop, a northern ireland only backstop etc.) - but I agree with Boris Johnson - enough is enough - we should leave on the 31st Oct.

[twofingerstoEverything]

Clav I remember your embarrassing assertions that most of the people on the biggest march were 'probably Europeans' or words to that effect. As you live in the south east, it would be an easy journey for you to get to Parliament Square when the next march happens and do your very own empirical research. You never know what you might find if you take your blinkers off and observe something for yourself, rather than googling/pasting links to articles that support your 'arguments' (such as they are).

[YeOldeTrout]

"EU academics/economists will be on the side of Remain"

How does that fit with someone like Gisela Stuart: who chaired Leave campaign despite being German born & raised? She even started a PhD so could have become an academic herself in alt-universe. I guess her reasons to support Leave must all be legit & unbiased because she supported the side Leavers approve of. Whereas if she supported the other side then of course her viewpoints would lack all legitimacy because of her birthplace.

Simple rules. Agree with Leavers = valid evidenced opinion from "The People" regardless of source, actual evidence, underlying principles or moral foundations. Disagree with Brexiters = obviously unbiased trash opinion of the evil establishment elite. That's the level of debate we've descended to.

Jack Straw (of all people) crystalised the situation for me. Basically, in the Leaver logic, majoritarianism trumps legal precedent, moral principles, logic and even the UK national govt. constitution. Simples (!)

[bellinisurge]

I love the "I don't live in a moneyed rarified world, I live in the south east" @Clavinova If you can afford Waitrose and local farm shops and private school AND you live in the south east, I think that's exactly what you live in. Riding on the back of other people's misfortune to get your BeLeaver goal.

[MysteryTripAgain]

Does anyone know why the Norway model was rejected? Guessing it was due to some form of customs union would still be required.

Advantage of Norway model is NI and Scotland are getting partly what they voted for as opposed to being out of EU completely.

Whilst UK is trying to close deals non EU countries Scotland could decide whether or not they want another referendum. Move to a Norway model would qualify as a significant change so no reason for Westminster to object to a second referendum on Scottish referendums.

Likewise the island of Ireland could decide if they want a border referendum.

If UK is successful in closing the trade deals as planned (that in itself a task that is measured in years as opposed to months) and both Scotland and NI have decided what they want to do, then UK could then consider if they want out of the EU completely.

Can’t work out why the leave supporters don’t want to consider leaving EU one step at a time. Trying to leave with everything they want overnight will never work.

Yes we know that leave vote was the majority, but still much too close to say to the 48% who voted remain that there view does not count at all.

[TheElementsSong]

I found Clavi's post of Thu 15-Aug-19 22:55:30 very useful for answering the actual title of the thread, as well as beautifully confirming that my previous observation was correct:

And there are plenty of Leave posters even on MN who are still spaffing on about the dubiousness of people with foreign taint, whether by blood or birth, or education, or (the horror!) working for employers of foreign origin, or (FGS) having a foreign surname.

Clavi has effectively admitted (albeit still with a mysterious degree of coyness) that not only do they judge people on how they voted (see other thread), they judge people on how they would have voted if they had been allowed but they don't even think they should be allowed and on which country people's parents shagged in, and on whether people decide to move from the country their parents shagged in, their surnames, on which employers they have worked for, whether they are tourists of particular nationalities, and other characteristics which mean that they are assumed to be inherently dubious.

In summary, those divisions aren't going to be healed, because some people will always be treated with suspicion for reasons like these. Sorry, OP.

And it seems like "naive" is in fact exactly the quality that Clavi desires in their intended audience to absorb their insinuation-filled word-cloud of: "Remainers people tainted with foreign Remainers", untrustworthy, corrupt, biased, liars, dishonest, frivolous, fifth column, etc.

[cherin]

one person I know who was adamant we should leave (“because the Syrians are at the gates”) is a naturalised Brit that came as immigrant from India, and I suspect had a bit of a grudge against “all these Europeans that get to the U.K. without having to jump through hoops like he had to do”. And he perceived that he had made it, and it was ok to close the door behind him in case someone else wanted to take a share of the British wealth....
Ah, the irony
This topic has been done over and over again, Clav.
I think people with an open mind, exposure to diversity, and a view of the world that recognised and appreciates its variety are more prone to stay in an organisation that promotes inclusion.
People with fear of the world are more prone to close down the hatch and bar the door. Even if they haven’t got enough in the larder to sustain them in their house if they isolate themselves from the outside.

If shit hits the fan, I doubt this level of division will get any better, if anything it’ll only go worse. And I’m really sorry.
But there’s absolutely nobody in government that is able to tackle the underlying cause of this fear of the world. And just as people in the rust belt of the USA voted for trump hoping in a miracle, others voted for this.

[jasjas1973]

Almost correct - I did nearly vote remain on the day - I would prefer a deal though (a time limit on the backstop, a northern ireland only backstop etc.) - but I agree with Boris Johnson - enough is enough - we should leave on the 31st Oct

You are certainly a rare beast, an almost remainer, who has become revolutionary no-dealer brexitier with unrivaled zeal.

I guess your love for no-deal comes from the basic fact that it won't really affect the wealthy.
A slightly weird experiment to sit back and watch with morbid fascination, similar to how many viewed WW1 ... until it was their son killed.

[twofingerstoEverything]

Can’t work out why the leave supporters don’t want to consider leaving EU one step at a time. Trying to leave with everything they want overnight will never work.
I expect some Leave supporters would be willing to do this, but their voices are drowned out by the hardliners screaming for no deal.

[prettybird]

I'm definitely suspect : not only am I a Remain voter, but I have a very Germanic and unusual surname; I am a naturalised UK citizen; not British born (but Commonwealth, not EU); University educated; and an Indy supporting Scot

Fortunately, living in Scotland, I can count the number of Leavers I have met on the fingers of one hand , so I have never encountered any negativity towards me. Only major , and at what the fuck is happening. And that includes the one group of friends who were No voters - but all were Remain voters.

[Clavinova]

Going out - but just to say that two of my grandparents are French born.

[bellinisurge]

Is that a "some of my friends are ...." by @Clavinova ?

[TheElementsSong]

@bellinisurgeThat's a Gisela Stuart, as perfectly explained by @YeOldeTrout this morning

[MaxNormal]

prettybird are you me?

[Camomila]

I suspect you're right TheElementsSong

I think the Norway model was rejected because it would require FOM...which tbf I think is a lot of people's 'red line'/most important issue on both the remain and leave side.

[prettybird]

It's already been established that we have very similar backgrounds Max - although my family arrived from South Africa earlier than yours I think (1964 in our case).

[Mistigri]

That's a Gisela Stuart

Probably not. That post was phrased carefully - you wouldn't say "born in France" if you meant "French".

[DorisDaysDadsDogsDead]

one person I know who was adamant we should leave (“because the Syrians are at the gates”) is a naturalised Brit that came as immigrant from India, and I suspect had a bit of a grudge against “all these Europeans that get to the U.K. without having to jump through hoops like he had to do”. And he perceived that he had made it, and it was ok to close the door behind him in case someone else wanted to take a share of the British wealth...

Actually, quite a lot of people of Indian/Pakistani descent voted to leave because they thought it would then be easier for them to bring more people from their part of the world into the UK just what all the other Quitlings voted for. And, indeed, Ugly Patel very deliberately targeted people owning/working in Indian restaurants lying to telling them that it would be much easier to bring in trained staff after Brexit. Yet more people who feel aggrieved and betrayed by the leave campaign...