What happens with the NI border in the event of No Deal?

[Bearbehind]

I can’t get my head round this.

If we leave with no deal then what happens regarding the NI border?

[GiantKitten]

prettybird thank you very much for your rundown of current border procedures at non-EU neighbour states. I’ve screenshotted it for future ref

[eurochick]

Fair play to you if you can work out a solution that deals with all these situations:
mobile.twitter.com/marksugruek/status/1155957402312663041

[Peregrina]

I have read the Good Friday Agreement and you will have to explain in simple words how the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has 'given up a claim to Northern Ireland'. The Republic has given up its claim to the North, yes.

Couldn't care less about NI unless they need it for votes, yes, I understand that all right.

[Peregrina]

Karen Bradley, as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, expressed surprise on learning that voters in NI tended to vote along sectarian lines

I will try to be a bit fair to her. I once lived in what is now her constituency and there is very little tension between Catholics and Protestants. Most Protestants there wouldn't even describe themselves as such, they are (or were when I lived there) much more likely to say they were Anglicans or Methodists or whatever. We also have relatives in Glasgow, and the North West, where the differences are much better understood. But even so, someone taking on that job should have taken a crash course in NI politics.

[prettybird]

I won't "be fair" on her - or Theresa May who out get in the role. One or both of them is guilty of crass ignorance, putting someone in tbd role with so little awareness of thud situation in NI.

In the same way that the Secretary of State for Scotland has to have some link to, or knowledge of, Scotland, so the Secretary of State for NI should have some knowledge of, or link to, NI. Not knowing that voting is usually along sectarian lines is just crass ignorance.

I might, just about, forgive Bradley - if she'd chosen genuinely to inform herself once in post. But I can't forgive May for putting someone in position who admitted to such crass ignorance

But there again, acknowledging the sensitivities of the sectarian voting in NI, and not wanting to show any preferences either way, out of respect to the GFA, would have precluded the C&S arrangement with the DUP and would've meant admitting that you'd lied to the Queen

[Peregrina]

I was only 'trying' to be fair!

It was ever thus, Wales, Scotland and Ireland are colonies as far as the Tories of the South east are concerned - John Redwood as Welsh Secretary didn't bother to learn the words of the National Anthem and made a complete fool of himself. Not that he cared.

[PortLouis1996]

@Peregrina

UK population is

NI 2.7%

Wales 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 4.5%

Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 8.2%

England 84.6%

So Westminster, London, South East and England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 in general saying;

“So what about, NI, Wales and Scotland”

Is very possible.

If Boris has to do that to deliver Brexit and hence win the next GE that’s what his plan will be?

[Peregrina]

At the moment, possibly overlooked by Johnson, the Scottish Tory party is propping up his Government. So maybe he shouldn't be quite so dismissive of them?

[sashh]

I have read the Good Friday Agreement and you will have to explain in simple words how the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has 'given up a claim to Northern Ireland'. The Republic has given up its claim to the North, yes.

Basically if enough people in NI want to be part of a united Ireland GB will not make any claim to NI.

At present there is a majority who want to stay in the UK so Ireland doesn't make a claim.

People born in NI can be British or Irish or both.

[sashh]

I'm sort of trying to think things through, I think I'm right that the old Common Travel Area is still in existence so people crossing a border would not be a problem but goods would.

Maybe a sort of, but probably expensive, solution could have all goods travel via Ireland, so only coming in from an EU country and therefore with EU standards.

Taking goods from NI to Ireland would be more problematic, allowing small amounts of goods for 'personal use' might work so any food brought over the border would not enter into the economy but you would be able to go to Tesco (other supermarkets are available) in NI and bring it home into Ireland.

The big problem would be with things like farm animals that have been raised in NI would not be able to be sold in Ireland.

And now my mind is thinking, nope that wouldn't work.

[Peregrina]

Basically if enough people in NI want to be part of a united Ireland GB will not make any claim to NI.

My understanding is that both sides would have to hold a Referendum, which looks unlikely at present. Given that both sides voted for the GFA but the Tory Government doesn't give a shit about that, I can't see them giving giving a shit about the result if it was for NI to join the Republic. Unless it becomes politically expedient to Johnson.

[Peregrina]

Isn't the big problem the cross border trade though - with e.g. the milk from cows in NI being set across the border to be processed into butter and cheese?

I am not in either country but it angers me, after all the effort achieving the GFA, that the Tory Government has dismissed the issues involved so lightly.

[Eve]

I’m old enough to remember border checkpoints ( raised close to the border in NI)

Smuggling was a national pastime!

Everyone did it - depending on which country was cheapest for which goods you would either buy in the north or south and take the small back roads to avoid checkpoints.

At the moment as the £ has tanked against the euro shoppers will be heading North (legally)

Article refers to last Xmas

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-46620373

[Howzaboutye]

Sash- smuggling!

Theres either a hoofing big wall, or there is free movement of people and goods.

I just don't see any alternative.
if they did a 'technology' solution it would require a lot of money and time to implement it. And that's only for the big hauliers.

The the little companies and people are still ok to move across the border? I can't see that being allowed.

I'm pretty sure the Ire/NI/ boat to Scotland or Wales is the preferred route of the people traffickers.
And the EU is going to want a proper border somewhere.

It makes a lot of sense for the border to be the sea and air ports. But apparently that's not ok.

Madness, as that's the most practical solution.

[Peregrina]

But apparently that's not ok. with the DUP, which to May were the only ones who mattered!

[Howzaboutye]

Can we tweet this thread to Boris and chums? Show them a sensible knowledgeable discussion about the reality eh.

Otherwise I'm just ~head desk~ about it all.

People will die if there are big border checkpoints.
There will be widespread smuggling.
It is just not an option.

[LegoPiecesEverywhere]

If there is no deal a hard border is required but that breaks the GFA. The US has said there will be no trade deal with the U.K. if the GFA is broken. There is no answer. There never was and there never will be.

[sashh]

Sash- smuggling!

Has always happened and always will.

Eve yep I've seen film of it.

[threadneedle]

We drove from Dublin to Donegal this week, crossed the border into the north at Aughnacloy and out at Strabane. The only indication that you are in NI is road signs in Mph rather than kph. It is absolutely seemless.

In contrast when we used to go as children, the border crossing was thus:
Stop at lights a short distance from border. Wait anything from 5 mins to half an hour.
Soldiers patrolling with rifles and overlooking from a tower- pretty terrifying in my memory. (Hopefully this will not happen this time around and there will just be customs agents)
When your turn comes you drive into a chicane with more armed soldiers, who ask where you're going and why. You open the car boot and they inspect your luggage, picnic, tennis rackets, fishing rods and other holiday paraphernalia. They are usually friendly but not always. They send you on you way.
You exit the chicane to find more armed soldiers on the way out.
You breath a huge sigh of relief as you drive away.
Tense drive for 50 minutes through the north as your ROI registration marks you out.
You go through the whole rigmarole again at Strabane.
You spend your holiday thinking about how you have to go through the whole thing again on the way home. I was sometimes able to cajole DF into driving the long way home via Sligo but it added hours onto the journey.

I still have vivid memories of driving through at night and driving behind a truck of soldiers in camouflage with blacked up faces guns at the ready. This would have been mid 90s, I in my was late teens and some of the faces looked about my age. I remember thinking at the time that they looked just as scared as I did. Terrible times, and I was just passing through, I can't imagine living through that on a daily basis.

[Howzaboutye]

Yep, my experience but from the 'other side'.

NI plates on the car is bad enough in the south, but English plates is/was really not good

The soldiers were all very young English fellows. Very polite but cold. Maybe they were nicer to us in an NI car? Who knows.

Basically everyone should watch Derry Girls. The most accurate depiction of the time.

[Cailleach1]

I think the UK said it had no selfish strategic or economic interest in NI. And it was up to a majority of people of NI if they wanted to remain in the UK, or join Ireland. By way of plebiscite/referendum. re GFA.

Peter Brooke said this and it was reiterated by John Major on behalf of the British gov't in the Downing Street Declaration.

This is also from the Downing street Declaration in '93.

3. They also consider that the development of Europe will, of itself, require new approaches to serve interests common to both parts of the island of Ireland, and to Ireland and the United Kingdom as partners in the European Union.

www.johnmajorarchive.org.uk/1990-1997/text-of-the-downing-street-declaration-15-december-1993/

[whyamidoingthis]

@Howzaboutye - *NI plates on the car is bad enough in the south, but English plates is/was really not good


Would you mind elaborating as I'm not sure what you mean? I've never seen or heard of any intimidating behaviour towards those in English or NI reg cars at checkpoints in the Republic. Given my reg is Irish, obviously I wouldn't have encountered it personally but I do have friends and family with both NI and English plates.

I assume that during the troubles there may have been more focus on NI cars but I don't see why English ones would have had? There certainly would be no need these days.

Back in the old days, my experience of soldiers at the border or at checkpoints was mixed. Some were, as you say, cold but polite. However, others were goady, antagonistic or intimidating. I know someone who was held at the border for hours because he said he was going to Derry rather than Londonderry. The soldiers wouldn't let him leave until he referred to it as Londonderry. In the end, he just told them he was turning around and going home. I was once stopped at a checkpoint and had a rifle held an inch from my head by a soldier while his partner checked my licence.

[MrPan]

I drove round Ireland on a UK-Registration car. It was for a week, in cities and the country - no poor reaction whatsoever.
In one village on a Sunday morning our car was blocked in at the car park. I thought it was bad, until I checked the blocking Ford Zephyr - it was left open with the keys in the ignition, for me to drive this beautiful car around the village for a while before returning it to our 'space'. I think the driver was being playful rather than unpleasant.

[whyamidoingthis]

@MrPan - it was left open with the keys in the ignition, for me to drive this beautiful car around the village for a while before returning it to our 'space'.

I think it was for you to move it out of the way rather than for you to play with .

In my experience, the smaller the town or village, the closer to their destination people expect to be able to park. So with a choice of park several hundred metres away or block someone in but leave the keys so they can get out, the closer parking is likely to win.

[placemats]

Northern Ireland will leave the union in event of a no deal Brexit exit.

Hope that helps.

I never thought I would see a United Ireland in my lifetime. However, it will happen in the event of a no deal.